Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[migueltojose]

I agree that it was no olive branch, I disagree that there is no conflict between those quotes - or at least, I disagree that I can see there is no conflict. I think the Holy Father is theologically sound, I can see no evidence to the contrary. However, as I stated in an earler post, I am confused by the comment that the church is obsessed with abortion. Can you explain it to me?

Maybe…

Here are the actual related statements: (nowhere are we obsessed with abortion)

*“We cannot **insist ****only on *issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. … … The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."

"only on" does not mean we do not **insist **on these issues … it means we still insist on these issues, but, that there are other issues we could insist on just as much or more… just not “only on” these issues…

“The proposal of the Gospel must be more simple, profound, radiant. It is from this proposition that the moral consequences then flow.”

And per a previous quote suggesting this interview was not about homilies…

*“I say this also thinking about the preaching and content of our preaching. **A beautiful homily, a genuine sermon **must begin with the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing. The homily is the touchstone to measure the pastor’s proximity and ability to meet his people, because those who preach must recognize the heart of their community and must be able to see where the desire for God is lively and ardent. The message of the Gospel, therefore, is not to be reduced to some aspects that, although relevant, on their own do not show the heart of the message of Jesus Christ.” *

Simply beautiful. Makes me proud to be a Catholic. Just as every other Pope I’ve ever witnessed has…

 

[CaliLobo]

So, who ever said protesting abortomills,politically and otherwise, is not an exercise of the Gospel? Should we just sit around all day and pray it away? Prayer works, but it compels to act.

I can’t change the image of the Church. And I don’t think stopping crisis pregnancy centers and prayer outside of abortion mills is going to do anything except make Catholics look like a bunch of weak, ineffectual, uncommitted losers, and plus, it will result in the slaughter of more babies. If we are “irrelevant” now, wait and see how irrelevant we will be when we sit around with our faces shoved shamefully in a corner, refusing to say anything, ever.

Sitting around hoping for things to happen does not, has never and will not work. Yes, we pray. Yes, we do it out of a Gospel conviction. And yes, that compels us to act.

I’m not sure where some have gotten the idea that the point is to be the most popular kid on the block.

Personally reaching out and showing love to those considering abortion is definitely an exercise of the Gospel. Using laws to restrict one’s rights and meddling into politics is, however, not necessary, and reeks of rejection, hate, and condemnation. That is what Francis is speaking about.

The Church has been at its historical worst when it meddles into politics (think Crusades). Politics and religion should be as separate as possible. And since the CC predated modern democracy, the CC can’t claim pro-life voting as tradition, either.

Opus101:

Verifiable statistics, please.

Remember World Youth Day in Brazil? Read the reports on how a country with over ~80% Catholics has fallen down to ~60%.

Look at the falling Catholic population in Ireland and Poland. Look at how France and Spain have fallen away.

The only reason the CC is growing by 1% in the US is because of Hispanic immigration. (Is that why the CC is loose on the immigration amnesty issue?) But Hispanics too are moving away from the CC–read Time magazine on the Latino Reformation.

White Americans are leaving the CC in droves. Look at the falling Catholic population in New England, for example.

 

[gracepoole]

I don’t know about the numbers of Catholics leaving the Church, but I think it would be interesting to know how many new contributors have signed on to CAF in the past few months. It seems there are a lot of trial & new members these days (or am I the only one noticing this?). If so, is this just coincidence regarding Francis’ papacy?

 

[livingwordunity]

If an obscure law to single out women who have abortions is not what Pope Francis meant by “The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules.” then I do not know what is.

Men can be excommunicated just as easily as a woman can for taking part in or encouraging abortion. Canon law doesn’t single out women.

 

[Slaney]

If an obscure law to single out women who have abortions is not what Pope Francis meant by “The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules.” then I do not know what is.

Abortion is not a small thing, abortion is the stopping of blood flowing through a babies veins, it’s stopping it suckling on it’s thumb, it saying I don’t want you, it’s saying I love you that’s why i’m killing you, it’s saying to God who said " be fruitful and multiply " NO ! abortion is a slap in the face to God, abortion is murder, and a murder’er has no life in them… Divine Mercy is the only hope for the lukewarm … Abortion stops the tiny mites heart, OMG

 

[livingwordunity]

Abortion is not a small thing, abortion is the stopping of blood flowing through a babies veins, it’s stopping it suckling on it’s thumb, it saying I don’t want you, it’s saying I love you that’s why i’m killing you, it’s saying to God who said " be fruitful and multiply " NO ! abortion is a slap in the face to God, abortion is murder, and a murder’er has no life in them… Divine Mercy is the only hope for the lukewarm …

We live in a culture that doesn’t care when babies die. Most drugs affect the brain in some way. And I believe the contraception pill, which many women are taking almost every day of their adult life, could be diminishing women’s natural motherly instinct to protect their baby.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

Jesus also said go forth and sin no more. I am not condemning, I am not judging, but I also am very concerned about the homosexual agenda. I’m afraid I’m also a sinner and I acknowledge that in the confessional. That is where their return to the church needs to begin.

I agree whole-heartedly that these people are living in mortal sin. Confession is an important step that should come early in their return. The first step, however, is recognizing the love that Christ has for each and every one of us.

Once you realize how much He desires a relationship with you, you begin to turn away from everything that holds you back from that relationship. That’s where confession fits in.

 

[JoeCarpenter]

Men can be excommunicated just as easily as a woman can for taking part in or encouraging abortion. Canon law doesn’t single out women on abortion.

Okay but it still singles out abortion as opposed to other heinous sins like murder, rape or child molestation.

And focusing on that rule pushes people away, it does not draw them in.

 

[Slaney]

We live in a culture that doesn’t care when babies die.

We will care when it’s too late, Fatima was a warning, it hasn’t been fulfilled as Pope Benedict xvi said…

 

[Slaney]

Okay but it still singles out abortion as opposed to other heinous sins like murder, rape or child molestation.

And focusing on that rule pushes people away, it does not draw them in.

Abortion is rightly singled out, because it’s the worst sin of the flesh that anyone can commit…

 

[JoeCarpenter]

Abortion is not a small thing, abortion is the stopping of blood flowing through a babies veins, it’s stopping it suckling on it’s thumb, it saying I don’t want you, it’s saying I love you that’s why i’m killing you, it’s saying to God who said " be fruitful and multiply " NO ! abortion is a slap in the face to God, abortion is murder, and a murder’er has no life in them… Divine Mercy is the only hope for the lukewarm … Abortion stops the tiny mites heart, OMG

I did not call being against abortion the small-minded rule. I called the law that women who get abortions are specifically excommunicated the small-minded rule.

 

[livingwordunity]

Abortion is rightly singled out, because it’s the worst sin of the flesh that anyone can commit…

It boggles my mind how the culture encourages women to murder their own babies and then tells them that they did something good.

 

[Slaney]

I did not call being against abortion the small-minded rule. I called the law that women who get abortions are specifically excommunicated the small-minded rule.

Ok sorry if I mis-understood you, I apologize, anyway were singing off the same hymn sheet, Blessings from Ireland…

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Here is the relevant section from the link:

“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.

“The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently. Proclamation in a missionary style focuses on the essentials, on the necessary things: this is also what fascinates and attracts more, what makes the heart burn, as it did for the disciples at Emmaus. We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel. The proposal of the Gospel must be more simple, profound, radiant. It is from this proposition that the moral consequences then flow."

No excuse, if he felt he was reprimanded for not speaking enough about them, then he should accept the admonishment, not make statement which seems like an elaborate excuse why he didn’t speak on those things.

“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion…" is a red herring, honestly I don’t know any one who is pro-life that insists that is the only issue. He might feel “it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.” But abortions happen all the time.

Truly a missed opportunity to speak on the behalf of the innocence who have no voice.

 

[Slaney]

Truly a missed opportunity to speak on the behalf of the innocence who have no voice.

I agree, Pope Francis seems to be having trouble with the English he knows, I have no idea how many languages he speaks. Anyway he is not coming across too good, abortion is the crime of the century, PJ2 focused on the importance of family, well there will be no family/ies if we continue to wipe the little ones out, and rip them from their mothers who aren’t sick by the way, because abortion is not a sickness…

 

[migueltojose]

No excuse, if he felt he was reprimanded for not speaking enough about them, then he should accept the admonishment, not make statement which seems like an elaborate excuse why he didn’t speak on those things.

“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion…" is a red herring, honestly I don’t know any one who is pro-life that insists that is the only issue. He might feel “it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.” But abortions happen all the time.

Truly a missed opportunity to speak on the behalf of the innocence who have no voice.

Here are the actual related statements: (nowhere are we obsessed with abortion)

“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. … … The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."

"only on" does not mean we do not insist on these issues … it means we still insist on these issues, but, that there are other issues we could insist on just as much or more… just not **“only on” **these issues…

“The proposal of the Gospel must be more simple, profound, radiant. It is from this proposition that the moral consequences then flow.”

And per a previous quote suggesting this interview was not about homilies…

“I say this also thinking about the preaching and content of our preaching.** A beautiful homily, a genuine sermon must begin with **the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing. The homily is the touchstone to measure the pastor’s proximity and ability to meet his people, because those who preach must recognize the heart of their community and must be able to see where the desire for God is lively and ardent. The message of the Gospel, therefore, is not to be reduced to some aspects that, although relevant, on their own do not show the heart of the message of Jesus Christ.”

Simply beautiful. Makes me proud to be a Catholic. Just as every other Pope I’ve ever witnessed has…

 

[YoungTradCath]

Using laws to restrict one’s rights and meddling into politics is, however, not necessary, and reeks of rejection, hate, and condemnation.

Lol? So, because a civil agency, the state, grants someone the legal impunity to do something, the Church should just say, “Oh, okay, the state says it’s okay, so we will pretend that it is?” I mean, what are you getting at?

I do not care whether campaigning for the end of abortion “reeks of rejection, hate, and condemnation.” I mean, what else is the Church supposed to do? Say, “Gee golly gosh, we can’t talk about that, 'cause it hurts people’s feelings?” What spineless hypocrisy that would be!

 

[YoungTradCath]

Yes, however, the implication is that we only insist on abortion and those other two issues, which is not true. When have we ever done that? When has the Church ever, in fact, limited Herself to only these issues since they have cropped up majorly in the last hundred years or so? Never. Not once.

Perhaps there is an image problem. I can grant that. But rather than implying–whoever is doing the implying doesn’t really matter–that we should stop focusing on these things, we should instead show the vast amount of work that we do in other areas, like health care, education and caring for the poor.

Maybe the public does think the only things the Church worries about are abortion and gay “marriage.” This is, of course, false, and I think the best way to deal with that is not to downplay these issues–that would be ipso facto giving in, and at least for me, would be sinning against conscience–but rather to show forth the other work we do.

 

[migueltojose]

Yes, however, the implication is that we only insist on abortion and those other two issues, which is not true. When have we ever done that? When has the Church ever, in fact, limited Herself to only these issues since they have cropped up majorly in the last hundred years or so? Never. Not once.

Perhaps there is an image problem. I can grant that. But rather than implying–whoever is doing the implying doesn’t really matter–that we should stop focusing on these things, we should instead show the vast amount of work that we do in other areas, like health care, education and caring for the poor.

Maybe the public does think the only things the Church worries about are abortion and gay “marriage.” This is, of course, false, and I think the best way to deal with that is not to downplay these issues–that would be ipso facto giving in, and at least for me, would be sinning against conscience–but rather to show forth the other work we do.

Here are the actual related statements: (nowhere are we obsessed with abortion)

“We cannot insist **only **on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. … … The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."

“only on” does not mean we do not insist on these issues … it means we do still insist on these issues, but, that there are other issues … just not** “only” **these issues…

“The proposal of the Gospel must be more simple, profound, radiant. **It is from this proposition that the moral consequences then flow.” **

 

[dannyboy2277]

Yes! Looks like Francis is finally bringing changes to the Catholic Church that are sorely needed.

Without these changes, people like JoeCarpenter are leaving the Church in droves.

I have said many times in previous threads that the CC overemphasizes political advocacy against gay marriage and abortion rights. But what the CC needs to focus more on is preaching the Gospel.

Preaching the Gospel is the best and only way to change people’s behavior. Not meddling into politics.

If the CC doesn’t change, it will still survive, but only as a tiny, remnant, irrelevant church.

MATTHEW 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Actually, the Church has survived for over 2,000 years because it doesn’t change like the wind. The word of God is eternal. You know that the Catholic Church is the true church because its doctrine does not change with the times.

So what would you have to say about St. Paul? He went to different towns and spoke out against the sins that the people were committing. He spoke out of love. So many in the world today think that EVERYBODY is going to Heaven. The Bible says this is not the case. A parent who lets their kid do anything is a bad parent. Sometimes we need to discipline our children for their own sake.

PROVERBS 23:13-14
Don’t hesitate to discipline children. A good spanking won’t kill them. As a matter of fact, it may save their lives.