Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[YoungTradCath]

Here are the actual related statements: (nowhere are we obsessed with abortion)

“We cannot insist **only **on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. … … The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."

“only on” does not mean we do not insist on these issues … it means we do still insist on these issues, but, that there are other issues … just not** “only” **these issues…

“The proposal of the Gospel must be more simple, profound, radiant. **It is from this proposition that the moral consequences then flow.” **

But since when have we only insisted on that? Often, when one says we ought not do something it is because we have been doing it; it is a corrective statement. I grant that this is not always the case. “Sally, we shouldn’t eat dessert before dinner.” This implies that Sally was going for the pie or something. So when somebody says something like that, it implies that that has been happening. It is not an absolute, and it is not always the case, but it often, more often than not, is. Perhaps I am reading too much into this, but I am left asking why he would say that if that is not the case.

It just strikes me as odd that he would say that, because of the usual implications of this sort of phraseology.

 

[dannyboy2277]

3,000 American babies are murdered every day through abortion.
God COMMANDED us to speak up for the innocent and defenseless.
We should be doing even more to prevent abortions.

PROVERBS 31:8
***Speak up for people who cannot speak for themselves. Protect the rights of all who are helpless.
***
http://www.numberofabortions.com/

 

[gracepoole]

This thread is turning into an example of the problem. The CCC clearly explains that every human life has dignity. This means that those who die via abortion are denied their God-given dignity. But it also means that those who die outside of their mothers’ wombs are denied, as well – the Church and God do not rank their lives as less meaningful or significant than those who die via abortion.

As far as I know, no one in this thread has championed abortion or “abortofests.” Nor did the Holy Father. I’m not sure why there’s an insistence on sharing one’s outrage over abortion, then, when everyone here believes it to be a grave sin (again, including the Holy Father).

(The thread is now past 1000 posts so I’ll simply add that it’s been an interesting discussion for the past couple of days!)

 

[saveusfromhell]

This thread is turning into an example of the problem. The CCC clearly explains that every human life has dignity. This means that those who die via abortion are denied their God-given dignity. But it also means that those who die outside of their mothers’ wombs are denied, as well – the Church and God do not rank their lives as less meaningful or significant than those who die via abortion.

As far as I know, no one in this thread has championed abortion or “abortofests.” Nor did the Holy Father. I’m not sure why there’s an insistence on sharing one’s outrage over abortion, then, when everyone here believes it to be a grave sin (again, including the Holy Father).

(The thread is now past 1000 posts so I’ll simply add that it’s been an interesting discussion for the past couple of days!)

no I don’t agree, people need to understand, the change and that can only happen via dialogue in places like these threads. it is a shift and people need time to adjust and get their heads around it. if the thread is boring you know you don’t need to post anymore.

 

[Julianna]

This thread is turning into an example of the problem. The CCC clearly explains that every human life has dignity. This means that those who die via abortion are denied their God-given dignity. But it also means that those who die outside of their mothers’ wombs are denied, as well --** the Church and God do not rank their lives as less meaningful or significant than those who die via abortion. **

As far as I know, no one in this thread has championed abortion or “abortofests.” Nor did the Holy Father. I’m not sure why there’s an insistence on sharing one’s outrage over abortion, then, when everyone here believes it to be a grave sin (again, including the Holy Father).

(The thread is now past 1000 posts so I’ll simply add that it’s been an interesting discussion for the past couple of days!)

:tiphat: I agree. thank you

 

[gracepoole]

no I don’t agree, people need to understand, the change and that can only happen via dialogue in places like these threads. it is a shift and people need time to adjust and get their heads around it. if the thread is boring you know you don’t need to post anymore.

I’m not sure why you think I’m bored with this thread. I never even hinted at such a thing. I’m also not sure what you’re disagreeing with, specifically.

 

[PTL]

I called the law that women who get abortions are specifically excommunicated the small-minded rule.

Where is this idea coming from? Nancy Pelosi who is the biggest abortion advocate has never been excommunicated. Abortion is murder, a mortal sin. Anyone who commits a mortal sin is not supposed to receive the Eucharist, that is self-excommunication.

The Church has never officially excommunicated anyone who had an abortion. And anyone who committed a mortal sin can repent, go to confession and come back at any time. I don’t know what you are talking about “law” or small minded rule!!

The Church has never refused any penitent. It is the drifted away Catholics not wanting to follow God’s law, not wanting to repent. That is the problem. Don’t make excuse for the sinners and make the sinner’s problem look like the church’s fault. Our society, under the influence of the evil media and this current administration is now good at calling black white and calling white black.

 

[Julianna]

no I don’t agree, people need to understand, the change and that can only happen via dialogue in places like these threads. it is a shift and people need time to adjust and get their heads around it. if the thread is boring you know you don’t need to post anymore.

and it is your right to disagree.

Not everyone in the U S of A is Catholic. Nor should they be. Life is precious whether life is in or outside the womb.

Not everyone in the US or the world for that matter comes to CAF. And CAF is not the end all and be all of Catholicism. Positive change comes from “within”. Starting at your local parish community.

Francis is doing everything he can to “show” us how it should be done. He doesn’t seem to take the media too seriously because he “knows” what he “said”. He has demonstrated his love for our Lord through his actions even “before” he became Pope. His has been going out into the community…and meeting the people where they “are”. He lives modestly. He drives a second hand car. Vestments are vestments and ones dripping in gold do not make it “better”. Shoes are shoes, they don’t have to be Prada.

I get it. I totally understand what Francis is saying and doing. The media can twist till the cows come home. I “see” with my own eyes how he is teaching us…as Jesus did.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Originally Posted by gracepoole View Post
This thread is turning into an example of the problem. The CCC clearly explains that every human life has dignity. This means that those who die via abortion are denied their God-given dignity. But it also means that those who die outside of their mothers’ wombs are denied, as well – the Church and God do not rank their lives as less meaningful or significant than those who die via abortion.

As far as I know, no one in this thread has championed abortion or “abortofests.” Nor did the Holy Father. I’m not sure why there’s an insistence on sharing one’s outrage over abortion, then, when everyone here believes it to be a grave sin (again, including the Holy Father).

(The thread is now past 1000 posts so I’ll simply add that it’s been an interesting discussion for the past couple of days!)

no I don’t agree, people need to understand, the change and that can only happen via dialogue in places like these threads. it is a shift and people need time to adjust and get their heads around it. if the thread is boring you know you don’t need to post anymore.

Dialogue is important, but as Grace said, 'no one in this thread has championed abortion or “abortifacients.”

The pastoral guidance from the Holy Father is telling us that the communication has to be through the love taught to us by God. Condemnations, with tones of disgust, are not perceived as fraternal correction of love, as taught in the Gospel, and causes a widening of division, which can push people to be deeper entrenched in error. We are not righteous, and all have sinned. For too long now we have measured the sins of others as worse than our own, for what seems to be promoting our own self righteousness.

The Pope has broadened the number issues which should concern us. He explains the importance of dialogue, and that it is for all through love.

 

[saveusfromhell]

and it is your right to disagree.

Not everyone in the U S of A is Catholic. Nor should they be. Life is precious whether life is in or outside the womb.

Not everyone in the US or the world for that matter comes to CAF. And CAF is not the end all and be all of Catholicism. Positive change comes from “within”. Starting at your local parish community.

Francis is doing everything he can to “show” us how it should be done. He doesn’t seem to take the media too seriously because he “knows” what he “said”. He has demonstrated his love for our Lord through his actions even “before” he became Pope. His has been going out into the community…and meeting the people where they “are”. He lives modestly. He drives a second hand car. Vestments are vestments and ones dripping in gold do not make it “better”. Shoes are shoes, they don’t have to be Prada.

I get it. I totally understand what Francis is saying and doing. The media can twist till the cows come home. I “see” with my own eyes how he is teaching us…as Jesus did.

not sure what your post has to do with mine? just seems like a random rant to me.

!)

This thread is turning into an example of the problem

and

The thread is now past 1000 posts so I’ll simply add that it’s been an interesting discussion for the past couple of days!)

gracepoole from the above quotes I took it to mean that you believe the issue has been talked out. if that is not what you meant I apoligize.

 

[anthonymarie]

"only on" does not mean we do not **insist **on these issues … it means we still insist on these issues, but, that there are other issues we could insist on just as much or more… just not “only on” these issues…

The more I reflect on it, read posts here and re-read the interview, I think you are right. The problem is being faced by media and, in my case and I’m sure others here, friends telling you the church is now “playing down the whole abortion issue” and “isn’t that wonderful”.

For many of us abortion is a very emotionally charged issue for various (often very personal) reasons.

other issues we could insist on just as much or more

Perhaps, but my own feelings and I think the feelings of a substantial minority of Catholics (and Christians in general) are that abortion is a defining issue of our times and “the culture of death”.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

and it is your right to disagree.

Not everyone in the U S of A is Catholic. Nor should they be. Life is precious whether life is in or outside the womb.

Not everyone in the US or the world for that matter comes to CAF. And CAF is not the end all and be all of Catholicism. Positive change comes from “within”. Starting at your local parish community.

Francis is doing everything he can to “show” us how it should be done. He doesn’t seem to take the media too seriously because he “knows” what he “said”. He has demonstrated his love for our Lord through his actions even “before” he became Pope. His has been going out into the community…and meeting the people where they “are”. He lives modestly. He drives a second hand car. Vestments are vestments and ones dripping in gold do not make it “better”. Shoes are shoes, they don’t have to be Prada.

I get it. I totally understand what Francis is saying and doing. The media can twist till the cows come home. I “see” with my own eyes how he is teaching us…as Jesus did.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole from the above quotes I took it to mean that you believe the issue has been talked out. if that is not what you meant I apoligize.

Threads exceeding 1000 posts are routinely closed by mods. I expect this thread will share the same fate shortly and merely wanted to tell folks that it’s been enjoyable while it lasted.

 

[saveusfromhell]

Threads exceeding 1000 posts are routinely closed by mods. I expect this thread will share the same fate shortly and merely wanted to tell folks that it’s been enjoyable while it lasted.

as I say some times posts get lost in translation

 

[ljwahn]

Reading the recent posts confirms my own views expressed earlier:

(1) having attended Mass in Britain, Australia and the USA for almost 30 years now, I have never heard a homily on abortion, gay marriage or contraception. If the Church is obsessed with these issues, I have never heard it in Church.

(2) In the past 3 days, I have had gloating/sneering comments from liberal friends and colleagues, who think the Pope has up-ended the Church’s teachings on these and other areas.

(3) Friends of mine (and me) who go into our normal lives as virtual apologists for the Church on these issues have all discussed how we feel that the Pope has abandoned us as “small minded” and almost Pharisees for defending the Bible and the Church’s historic teaching.

It may be that Pope Francis meant well and meant to not say what has been interpreted. But by his verbal incoherence the Pope has given a free kick to cafeteria Catholics, to Nancy Pelosis and Joe Bidens, and more or less abandoned his own soldiers fighting the good fight.

What serious Catholic, fighting for the Faith in a hostile environment, now think that he or she has the same support of the current Pope as was had under Popes JPII and Benedict?

Pope Francis needs better advisors, better advice and he needs to be realistic about what he is doing. If he and his advisors think it is a winning strategy to abandon faithful and fighting Catholics to appease the NY Times and the gay lobby, then he needs all of our prayers more than I thought he did when he said “who am I to judge?”.

The Pope is meant to be God’s messenger whatever the consequences, not God’s editor for a liberal, first world audience.

Well said. I feel the same way. Its like he is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. I have wondered if he may not be overwhelmed by the media attention and likes being in the limelight. He just needs to temper his words and think about what he is about to say will be perceived.

 

[Julianna]

not sure what your post has to do with mine? just seems like a random rant to me.

and
gracepoole from the above quotes I took it to mean that you believe the issue has been talked out. if that is not what you meant I apoligize.

take it as you wish

 

[Julianna]

Well said. I feel the same way. Its like he is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. I have wondered if he may not be overwhelmed by the media attention and likes being in the limelight. He just needs to temper his words and think about what he is about to say will be perceived.

Are you kidding me? Really?

Hmmmm I wonder what would happen if I typed that “Benedict needs to temper his words and think about what he is about to say”?

No 1, I would never say that. and No 2, the trads would be on me like white on rice.

Every Pope speaks differently, style, tone et al. The “message” is the same. As some of you say, “The Church does not change.”

 

[gracepoole]

Well said. I feel the same way. Its like he is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. I have wondered if he may not be overwhelmed by the media attention and likes being in the limelight. He just needs to temper his words and think about what he is about to say will be perceived.

This is where I think things get dangerous. Whenever we assume that we know better than the pontiff, perhaps we (including me) should look to ourselves and reconsider our own position a bit more thoroughly. I think Pope Francis knows exactly what he’s doing.

 

[saveusfromhell]

Reading the recent posts confirms my own views expressed earlier:

(1) having attended Mass in Britain, Australia and the USA for almost 30 years now, I have never heard a homily on abortion, gay marriage or contraception. If the Church is obsessed with these issues, I have never heard it in Church.

(2) In the past 3 days, I have had gloating/sneering comments from liberal friends and colleagues, who think the Pope has up-ended the Church’s teachings on these and other areas.

(3) Friends of mine (and me) who go into our normal lives as virtual apologists for the Church on these issues have all discussed how we feel that the Pope has abandoned us as “small minded” and almost Pharisees for defending the Bible and the Church’s historic teaching.

It may be that Pope Francis meant well and meant to not say what has been interpreted. But by his verbal incoherence the Pope has given a free kick to cafeteria Catholics, to Nancy Pelosis and Joe Bidens, and more or less abandoned his own soldiers fighting the good fight.

What serious Catholic, fighting for the Faith in a hostile environment, now think that he or she has the same support of the current Pope as was had under Popes JPII and Benedict?

Pope Francis needs better advisors, better advice and he needs to be realistic about what he is doing. If he and his advisors think it is a winning strategy to abandon faithful and fighting Catholics to appease the NY Times and the gay lobby, then he needs all of our prayers more than I thought he did when he said “who am I to judge?”.

The Pope is meant to be God’s messenger whatever the consequences, not God’s editor for a liberal, first world audience.

the way I look at it is. when I feel like this, I question myself is it my pride that’s hurt, people now laughing at the pope shifting the ground. in truth I think it may be.
so the best thing to do is offer the humiliation up to Jesus to stop abortion etc.

the thing I keep reminding myself is. the Eucharistic miracle approved by the pope as a bishop shortly before becoming pope and the lightning striking the Vatican when the pope benedict retired. I believe God was telling us this is my will. so I will follow in humility as it appears to be God’s will.

 

[ljwahn]

Are you kidding me? Really?

Hmmmm I wonder what would happen if I typed that “Benedict needs to temper his words and think about what he is about to say”?

No 1, I would never say that. and No 2, the trads would be on me like white on rice.

Every Pope speaks differently, style, tone et al. The “message” is the same. As some of you say, “The Church does not change.”

No, the Church does not change.