Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[The_Bucket]

We still try to prevent some types of sinners from having homes. There are laws throughout this nation that prevent a person convicted of a sex crime from being able to live in proximity to schools and day cares. So the principle of keeping some types of sinners away from people is still applied. In fact that is a reason for prisons, which most people don’t object to.

What has changed is not the principle of punishing sins or even keeping sinners away but what sins are worthy of punishment. You do have to draw a line somewhere. At one time homosexuality was considered a serious sin. That it is not such a big sin anymore is probably only due to the fact that there is so much serious sin in western culture. Sinners tend to band together and agree to ignore other folks sins if they’ll ignore theirs. That is not the path to holiness but the path to devilishness.

Prisons and keeping sexual predators away from children is a far cry from trying to ban homosexuals from living in a certain area. It was all hysteria in the past and nothing factual. The thought was that those terrible, terrible gays were going to molest your kid or turn him/her gay too.

That’s just nonsense. What threat do homosexuals pose to you? None. The only danger they pose is to their own souls. Sexual predators and violent criminals, on the other hand, do pose a clear and present danger to your person and to your family. That’s a perfectly valid reason to keep them “penned up” as it were.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Wow, I love Pope Francis. These are things I’ve been saying for years. Finally, a Pope who believes in compassion. A Pope who doesn’t wear outlandishly flashy clothing. A Pope who focuses on charity rather than on others sins.

Finally, a pope who acts like Jesus.

"Thomas Casey:

Negative and rude comments toward clergy (deacons, priests and bishops) or toward religious and religious orders are banned.

Everyone, online and offline, deserves to be spoken to and about respectfully. However, some posters seem to feel that clergy and religious are fair game.

I’ve been here a long time and read countless posts, but this one wins the prize.

What an insult to each and every pope, including Peter, in the Catholic Church…

:sad_yes:

 

[arnulph]

without a foundation of love, all the blunt truth in the world is useless. we must focus on the most absolute fundamental truth- God’s call for us to share in his love, only this truth can bear fruit capable of combatting sin, as opposed to mere obsession and fixation on the sin

I want everyone in the world to know how much God loves them. It transformed me, knowledge of God’s love for me. It has made me strive and work to be better, to love more and to fall less. I want to please God because he has been so good to me, I want to be made worthy of all the gifts, grace and mercy he has given me – a wretch like me.

Pope Francis is right, the church is not for a select few, but for all. Let’s open up our doors and transform lives.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

I love this pope, he is awesome. I love that he is exhorting us Catholics to embrace all people with charity, humility and a loving attitude. That is where real change starts. The problem I see with some of the more conservative members of the Church is that the attitude is all wrong.

True story. I used to belong a Catholic group. We were having a discussion on the topic of homosexuality and one of the members who was a lapsed Catholic trying to get back into her faith mentioned her sister was a lesbian. One of the outspoken conservative members then proclaimed, “well, your sister has to stop being a lesbian or she’s going to hell!” A riotous discussion ensued and the member left the meeting in tears. Needless say she never returned to the group and I wonder if she ever returned to the Church.

I also have a friend who is a practicing Catholic but happens to vote Democrat. A lot of her conservative friends constantly criticize her and call her a baby killer for voting Democrat. She’s no longer friends with most of them, but out of kindness and charity attempts to remain friends with some of them.

Attitude matters and I applaud the Pope for stressing this.

Us conservatives are not the problem in the Church. Charity is always important, and always must be stressed, but error must be condemned, not coddled.

 

[shawnbm]

Has it now? Abortion did not exist before Vatican II? Homosexuality did not exist before Vatican II?

I daresay the world is getting less evil. Prior to Vatican II we had world war and genocide. We turned a blind eye to Stalin massacring 50 million of his own people in the Soviet Union. We had race-based discrimination and before that, race-based slavery.

We had pogroms against the Jews carried out by so-called Christian leaders. We had the Inquisition. We had all manner of horrors.

Many of them continue today. But you know what? The poor are getting more food. People are being lifted out of poverty. The world is a slightly less bad place. Is it all moving in the right direction? Certainly not.

But not just 40 years ago we in this nation were trying to keep homosexuals from getting houses. Think of that! Certain sinners singled out to be banned from housing meanwhile fornicators, adulterers, greedy individuals, those inclined to violence and hatred… they were just fine.

Does this mean we need to all now say that homosexual acts are morally licit? Surely not. But why is that sin singled out and others can continue to sin as they please and are not discriminated against?

I concur with a lot of what is said here. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Saint Paul wrote to the Romans under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is amazing how many Christians forget that.

 

[The_Bucket]

All I got from the interview was that by healing, he hints at acceptance. The fact that he referred to getting caught up with rules when referring to topics like abortion feels like a stab in the back.

He said nothing of the kind, only that someone who participates in an abortion should be allowed to find redemption. Do you disagree with that?

His point about “getting caught up with” abortion, contraception and homosexuality is that the world only hears that message and nothing else. The world does not hear about the love Christ has for all of us collectively and individually.

Pope Francis genuinely believes that you cannot embrace the Church unless you embrace Christ. And you cannot embrace Christ unless you know him. This is his exhortation to us to help the world come to know Christ. The world will learn about Christ by our message, by our example. Once the world comes to know Christ and enters into relationship with Him, it will understand the “rules” and how they are not restrictive but liberating.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

All I got from the interview was that by healing, he hints at acceptance. The fact that he referred to getting caught up with rules when referring to topics like abortion feels like a stab in the back.

Even if he **were **hinting at this (which BTW I refuse to accept); I consider that the media’s is using Pope Francis, for now, to present a crafted ‘anti-Pope’ by trying to make him look as though he DIFFERS in his ‘teaching’ from other Popes and will ‘change’ the Church. He might differ in style, but he does not differ in teaching the Faith, and if by any chance I am wrong and he would attempt to do this, be assured that the Church will be protected from teaching falsehood.

I still trust Pope Francis because I can clearly see that just as the media twisted Benedict’s words and presented him as cold and uncaring because of his early position, they are twisting Pope Francis’ words just as much. They’re just twisting them in a different way.

They realized that Benedict’s words and actions clearly indicated the truth of Catholic teaching, and all that they could do was ‘ad hominem’–attempt to make Benedict the MAN look cold, and then present the logical fallacy :He is cold, therefore the Church is cold. And over time fewer and fewer people were duped.

But ah, with Pope Francis, they can twist his words and present a ‘reverse’ ad hominem: "Look, Francis is warm, Francis is accepting, Francis speaks of ‘change’ in the heart, and that MUST mean change in the teaching. Because Francis is warm, he will change the church, and because he is warm he is good, and because he is good, changing the Church will be good.’

SAME OLD ILLOGICAL FALLACIES, different premises. And will be,in time, just as clearly seen by people. . .and by then, the media (and Satan) will have a new ‘twist’. Just don’t listen.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

He said nothing of the kind, only that someone who participates in an abortion should be allowed to find redemption. Do you disagree with that?

His point about “getting caught up with” abortion, contraception and homosexuality is that the world only hears that message and nothing else. The world does not hear about the love Christ has for all of us collectively and individually.

Pope Francis genuinely believes that you cannot embrace the Church unless you embrace Christ. And you cannot embrace Christ unless you know him. This is his exhortation to us to help the world come to know Christ. The world will learn about Christ by our message, by our example. Once the world comes to know Christ and enters into relationship with Him, it will understand the “rules” and how they are not restrictive but liberating.

I agree with everything you’re saying here. My problem is with one major premise. The world has heard about the radical love the Gospels preach and teach us. The world has chosen to reject it, in favor of evil. The media covers up whenever the Church acts in charity but also in condemnation of error. If Benedict XVI had said what Francis said now, the media spin would be “BENEDICT = SATAN.” The martyrs didn’t die out of simple love, they died for the Truth and ALL it entails.

 

[KrazyKat]

I believe that moral evil in the world is increasing because due to modernism in the Church, countless souls believe that it is okay to practice moral evils while being in good standing with the Church.

I believe that you are correct.

 

[CutlerB]

Read Father Z.'s blog on this, he get’s it right. Also keep in mind that the title of this post is the very title of the article from what I have heard, quite appropriately, referred to as “Hell’s Bible”, the NYT.

Pope Francis said nothing of the sort.

 

[einna]

Note the bold (which I added, I hope dixieagle doesn’t mind).

I can’t imagine allowing the media’s choice of headlines to make me feel “disturbed” about the vicar of Christ. He should be making us think. I love this man more and more every day.

I couldn’t agree more. Here is another article The American Magazine which is a Catholic Magazine.

americanmagazine.org/popeinterview

When did we get so far away from the loving, forgiving, patience God of our faith. To many people live to condemn others when we are ALL sinners. Hope it helps people see a better side than they are choosing to focus on.

 

[The_Bucket]

Us conservatives are not the problem in the Church. Charity is always important, and always must be stressed, but error must be condemned, not coddled.

God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.

How many souls have you won to Christ today? How much did you preach the Gospel today?

How much did I preach the Gospel today? How many sins did I commit today?

Look at yourself as the Holy Father looks at himself. A sinner. A sinner nevertheless given an important and urgent task, to win souls to Christ.

If you are not winning souls to Christ you are failing. If you are not preaching the Gospel at all times, you are part of the problem. Count me among those who are part of the problem! We are all part of the problem because we fail daily to love God with all our beings and love our neighbors as ourselves.

Anything less is Pharisaical thinking.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

I couldn’t agree more. Here is another article The American Magazine which is a Catholic Magazine.

americanmagazine.org/popeinterview

When did we get so far away from the loving, forgiving, patience God of our faith. To many people live to condemn others when we are ALL sinners. Hope it helps people see a better side than they are choosing to focus on.

Except no one has been calling for running around casting the first stone. We know we are all sinners, but for the Pope to seemingly downplay the reality of moral evil is troubling. Yes, I’ve read the interview, and I know he said that the teachings of the Church do not change, but when the words of the Pope are watched by the world, and those words seemingly (even if not actually) give credence to evil, that is a problem.

 

[Gricken]

I think what he is saying is that a lot of people become obsessed with these issues, to the point of fanaticism, and we forget that we need to be focused on God. Not just the issues, but why the issues are important. They get so caught up in proving their point they froget about Gospel. He isn’t saying Abortion and Gay marriage are right, but that we need to remember the word of God as well.

I don’t know, that’s just what I think. Anyone agree or disagree with me?

 

[AdvanceAlways]

God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.

How many souls have you won to Christ today? How much did you preach the Gospel today?

How much did I preach the Gospel today? How many sins did I commit today?

Look at yourself as the Holy Father looks at himself. A sinner. A sinner nevertheless given an important and urgent task, to win souls to Christ.

If you are not winning souls to Christ you are failing. If you are not preaching the Gospel at all times, you are part of the problem. Count me among those who are part of the problem! We are all part of the problem because we fail daily to love God with all our beings and love our neighbors as ourselves.

Anything less is Pharisaical thinking.

Nowhere here do I disagree with you. Did I say I was not a sinner? Of course not, don’t put words in my mouth. And yes, I am very much concerned with winning souls to Christ. I simply refuse to accept that by coddling moral evil, we’re winning anyone to Christ.

 

[shawnbm]

God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.

How many souls have you won to Christ today? How much did you preach the Gospel today?

How much did I preach the Gospel today? How many sins did I commit today?

Look at yourself as the Holy Father looks at himself. A sinner. A sinner nevertheless given an important and urgent task, to win souls to Christ.

If you are not winning souls to Christ you are failing. If you are not preaching the Gospel at all times, you are part of the problem. Count me among those who are part of the problem! We are all part of the problem because we fail daily to love God with all our beings and love our neighbors as ourselves.

Anything less is Pharisaical thinking.

THIS ^

 

[manualman]

I do not think the pope is saying what the NY Times fervently wants him to be saying. Jesus liked parables, which are really a form of analogy. Try this “parable of the home buyer.”

Once there was a young couple looking to purchase their first home. They went to see three available houses in their price, size and location desired. The first was a gorgeous home; spacious and beautiful, but slightly musty smelling. The cause was quickly found in the basement where the foundation was collapsing and severe water damage was present.

The second house they saw was frightful from the street. It hadn’t been painted on the outside in years, the landscape was overgrown and many windows were boarded shut. Surprisingly, it was well kept inside and sturdily built on a solid foundation. But what an ugly mess viewed from outside.

The third house was both solidly built, beautifully maintained and appealingly decorated. Which house do you suppose they bought?

For those analogy challenged, I think the pope is essentially saying that we can’t spend all our energies denouncing the sins of the world, or the world will not hear the Good News of Christ. We will become like the second house and people will drive by without stopping to have a look.

This by NO means suggests that we can allow OURSELVES to become like the first house, that presents a pretty face to the world, but is internally collapsing due to a lack of firm moral foundation. Compromise with sin is obviously a non-starter for Catholicism.

I think he’s calling us to be like the third house. To work to ensure that people SEE the joy that Christ brings to our lives. This doesn’t hardly allow us to neglect to discern right from wrong (lest we become the first house again). But we are called to grow beyond just structural maintenance to architectural (spiritual) beauty.

This is how I take the pope’s meaning. I’m sure there will be plenty who try to make his words into an excuse for compromising with sin. Such people will only rot their own foundation.

 

[Peebo]

I must admit to being a tad concerned after the initial headline…but after reading the article what he said is exactly as it should be…the church has already made perfectly clear its position on abortion…gay marriage…contraception etc…we need to do what our Holy Father has challenged us to do…evangelize…tell the world about the Catholic Church…its faith in Jesus Christ who is the cornerstone of our church…the 2000 years of unbroken succession of Popes since Peter “the rock” upon whom Christ built his church…its history and traditions from the days of the Apostles…the beauty found in the liturgy of the mass…the many Catholic orders worldwide living the words of our Savior…“love one another even as I have loved you”…the mainstream media has presented such a negative image of a hypocritical judgmental church over the last few years…the sexual abuse by priests is an example…while it may have not been handled as it should by the church the Catholic church was by no means the only organization that was at fault…and the number of priests involved worldwide was only a very small percentage if we go back 50 years to the present time there must be at least a few million priests who faithfully served their flock…I pray our Holy Father will shepherd our church so others will see that the love of Christ dwells in his one Holy Catholic and Apostolic church…I know he has stirred my faith for the better.

 

[The_Bucket]

The world has heard about the radical love the Gospels preach and teach us. The world has chosen to reject it, in favor of evil.

The world hears words, but does it see actions? Pronounce ourselves guilty first and least worthy of carrying the message… and then carry the message.

Miserando atque eligendo. Miserando atque eligendo indeed, for we are all lowly but chosen. We were chosen by God to be part of the one, true Church… and to lead the rest of the world to Her!

How different is the world’s rejection of the Gospel now than it was in Christ’s time? Or in the early Church? Or when it was carried via missionaries to the ends of the Earth?

So the message has been proclaimed for 2,000 years, do we stop now? Or do we seek out new wastelands and preach the message in a new world thirsting for truth. The world is smashing rocks in an effort to find the river and proclaiming every hallucination to be real because our neighbors so desperately want their thirst to be quenched and their bellies to be filled.

Why should we deny them? If they reject the water we offer, offer it again. If they say their rocks are bread when we offer them a loaf, still offer the loaf! If they persecute us and whip us with words and call us evil for trying to feed them… still try to feed them!

 

[_Abyssinia]

All I got from the interview was that by healing, he hints at acceptance. The fact that he referred to getting caught up with rules when referring to topics like abortion feels like a stab in the back.

Pope Francis has not displayed acceptance of abortion or homosexual marriage

Bergoglio: The moral problem with abortion is of a pre-* religious nature because the genetic code of the person is present at the moment of conception. There is already a human being. I separate the issue of abortion from any religious concept. It is a scientific problem. To not allow further progress in the development of a being that already has the entire genetic code of a human being is not ethical. The right to life is the first human right. Abortion is killing someone that cannot defend himself.

ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/extracts-of-new-book-on-pope-francis

Cardinal Bergoglio Hits Out at Same-Sex Marriage

He wrote: “In the coming weeks, the Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family…At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

Cardinal Bergoglio continued: “Let us not be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God’s plan. It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a ‘move’ of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

Last year, then-Cardinal Bergoglio stated, “Abortion is never a solution. We listen, support and understanding from our place to save two lives: respect the human being small and helpless, they can take steps to preserve your life, allow birth and then be creative in the search for ways to bring it to its full development.”

He once called abortion a “death sentence” for unborn children, during a 2007 speech and likening opposition to abortion to opposition to the death penalty.

In an October 2, 2007 speech Bergoglio said that “we aren’t in agreement with the death penalty,” but “in Argentina we have the death penalty. A child conceived by the rape of a mentally ill or retarded woman can be condemned to death.”

lifenews.com/2013/03/13/new-pope-francis-called-abortion-the-death-penalty-for-the-unborn

Here is an article since Cardinal Bergolio became Pope

Vatican: Pope attacks abortion, defends human life from conception