Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[dans0622]

They have been the only thing that the world hears. Francis is not telling anyone to stop teaching about it. Just as with all his other public statements, he is saying "The world knows what we are against. …

Hello,

And they hear it from whom? Why? The Pope spoke of “preaching” and I do agree that these issues are seldom mentioned in preaching. So, on that point, I am not sure who the Pope is talking about… And, my question would be: if the world is well aware of what we are against, what is the point of continuing the teaching about it? That, I think, is the question at the heart of “AdvanceAlways”'s concerns.

Anyway, “the world” might only hear about these issues because they are the only ones about which it asks the Church (or accuses the Church). They are the ones that are on the forefront of the secular, progressive agenda. Nobody (well, not literally) is saying “God doesn’t love us” so I don’t expect a series of public statements from clergy saying “God loves us.”

Dan

 

[newsmike]

Fight with LOVE - I love it. I’m going to make that my new motto!

And we all know how evil responds to love right? I recall my lessons all those years ago. Michael the Archangel treated Satan with love. Actually went to Starbucks together and Michael treated Satan with respect. This of course melted Satan’s heart who immediately changed his ways.

 

[einna]

Do recall that repentance is also a message of the Gospel, not just love, but a call to repent. Are you saying that our Saints who fought heresy and evil should have simply not said anything, because they too were sinners?

I didn’t say that. I said the Church is here to teach, isn’t that a apart of the teachings. Are you saying we should focus on people sins before the love God has for all of us?

I simply gave the link so that people could better understand where Pope Francis is coming from. I know many will not like him or what he says, just as I was never big on Pope Benedict because I was raised with only Jesuit priest, so of course I love Pope Francis. His message was what I grew up with. I was stunned to get on this site and hear so many people condemning others, nor did I ever learn that was a part of my role as a Catholic. It was to teach others and live my faith.

I was told there would never be a Jesuit priest in my lifetime, but the Bishops and Cardinals, who voted quickly for this Pop,e thought he was the right person. I hardly think they did not know who they were selecting. He is not preaching anything against the church he is just focusing on God’s love and patience.

 

[Thomas_B]

And we all know how evil responds to love right? I recall my lessons all those years ago. Michael the Archangel treated Satan with love. Actually went to Starbucks together and Michael treated Satan with respect. This of course melted Satan’s heart who immediately changed his ways.

Okay… so as Catholics we are supposed to be following Jesus’ teachings and actions in the Bible right? I just don’t remember him throwing stones at the adultress and codemning the tax collectors and prostitutes. Actually, he hung out with them at dinner. Now we have the Catholic Church. Seemed to work for him, why can’t it work for us?

 

[dans0622]

The narrative that this whole interview has created is disastrous. For those of us here, we’re generally well read Catholics. When your average Catholic picks up the newspaper or checks the internet and he sees:

CNN: Pope Francis: Leave Gays Alone
NYPost: Pope: Stance on Abortion, Gays Massive Threat to Church
Daily News: A Very Frank Francis: Blunt pontiff tells flock to yammering about gay marriage, abortion, and contraceptives–or moral edifice of church will ‘fall like a house of cards
NY Times: Pope Bluntly Faults Church’s Focus on Gays and Abortion
AOL: Francis Condemns Church

that is bad. That does not save souls. That loses souls.

Hello,

I understand your concerns, expressed here and throughout the thread. Regarding these headlines–if they lose souls, that’s on the heads of the headline writers. They certainly took what Benedict had to say and put it in a bad light… I do suspect that today’s media would have turned the the very Word of God on its head, if Christ were preaching today.

I guess I’ll say again that you should not take the Pope’s words personally, as if he is telling you to stop fighting for life. I’m going to keep focused on “small-minded rules” because that’s my job. Let’s just keep the reason for our work grounded on and in the Lord.

Dan

 

[Julian_Bashir]

Yes some actually are and I find it disturbing that a sinner can go around condemning other sinners. NONE of us are deserving of God’s love. The Church is here teach not condemning and above all else it is about the infinite love God has for all His children. That is what the Pope wants the focus to be before all else.

He stated the Church stance has no changed. What some people in the Church have lost is remember to love one another.

Why is is you consider allowing people to hurt themselves, hurt God, and hurt others to be loving them?

I hope the people who love me do not allow to me to wallow in my mistakes and help me see where I have gone off of the path and help me to do better. That is true love, and it much harder than simply saying"there, there; God loves you, no need to change your life."

 

[CrossofChrist]

Right…

Good one NYT
“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.
*

Basically what he’s saying is we can’t constantly be discussing these relevant and important social issues. For instance, whenever there is a thread in World News, regardless of what it is about, people will bring up abortion. Talking about old-age pensions or social security? That’ll segway into euthanasia and a culture of death, and then abortion.

When everything is made into a discussion about the culture of death, something is wrong. It’s a pessimistic worldview that needs to be replaced with optimism and the joy Jesus gives us. We can’t just stand off to the side and say, “Wow, what a pathetic world. Lord have mercy.” We are part of that world and it’s our job to make it better. By constantly screaming “abortion and gay marriage are evil!” we make the Word of God impossible to hear; we’re telling the world the symptoms of their illness, not the Source of their Redemption. And that’s a problem.

The Pope isn’t saying it bad to discuss the culture of death. He’s saying it’s bad to be obsessed with it to the point of putting Jesus in the back seat. The devil wants us to be caught up with all the problems in the world, and doesn’t want us focused on Jesus.

Unfortunately, the NYT will use this as another opportunity to say “Good Francis, Bad Benedict”, when he’s just repeating the same message as his predecessor: Look to Jesus.

 

[newsmike]

I didn’t say that. I said the Church is here to teach, isn’t that a apart of the teachings. Are you saying we should focus on people sins before the love .

I believe that we are not actually teaching when we say “Who am I to judge.” If we are unwilling to condemn certain behaviors and take the soft middle on everything, then in the end do we really stand for anything anyway? The political correctness of this desire to “not judge” will make us irrelevant. After all, are we teaching by saying, “Don’t do this, unless you really want to?”

 

[einna]

People are not listening when we talk this way. It is time we try a different angle. We bring them to the word of God first. We preach the truth, not bemoan the society of today. When they see the word of the lord, when they see us living it, when they see us loving others. They will come to us in wonder, not in hate like they do today, but in awe.
That is what the pope is saying. he is NOT saying to be silent on the issues of today, far from it. But we CAN NOT focus on screaming about the issue of today to the exclusion of living the faith. When we do that, we get what happens today, people who hear “catholic” and think horrible things about us.
So yes, I agree with the pope. We need to live the Word, Live the faith, if we are to have ANY hope of righting the wrongs in the world.

I kind of see it like this. Many children do right because their parents teach right and wrong and knowing their parents love them the try to do right. Other do right because they might get in trouble, not because it is the right thing to do.

We have gotten away from teaching how much God loves us and wants good for us and that He is trying desperately to lead us to that good. There are always going to be people that don’t listen, just like there will be children that will go astray, but God will never stopping loving us and He will always want us to come back home.

 

[justice99]

So many posts in this thread in a short time.
Just wanted to contribute by saying:
God is still God, man is still man, the Church is still the Church and the media is still the media.
.
This doesn’t change anything. The Church is the mystical body of Christ and is not sustained by its own merits.

 

[Lormar]

“The people itself constitutes a subject. And the church is the people of God on the journey through history, with joys and sorrows. Thinking with the church, therefore, is my way of being a part of this people.** And all the faithful, considered as a whole, are infallible in matters of belief, and the people display this infallibilitas in credendo, this infallibility in believing, through a supernatural sense of the faith of all the people walking together.** This is what I understand today as the ‘thinking with the church’ of which St. Ignatius speaks. When the dialogue among the people and the bishops and the pope goes down this road and is genuine, then it is assisted by the Holy Spirit. So this thinking with the church does not concern theologians only."

Can someone explain to me what he means here (bolded part)?

 

[meltzerboy]

Right…

Good one NYT
“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.
*

Basically what he’s saying is we can’t constantly be discussing these relevant and important social issues. For instance, whenever there is a thread in World News, regardless of what it is about, people will bring up abortion. Talking about old-age pensions or social security? That’ll segway into euthanasia and a culture of death, and then abortion.

When everything is made into a discussion about the culture of death, something is wrong. It’s a pessimistic worldview that needs to be replaced with optimism and the joy Jesus gives us. We can’t just stand off to the side and say, “Wow, what a pathetic world. Lord have mercy.” We are part of that world and it’s our job to make it better. By constantly screaming “abortion and gay marriage are evil!” we make the Word of God impossible to hear; we’re telling the world the symptoms of their illness, not the Source of their Redemption. And that’s a problem.

The Pope isn’t saying it bad to discuss the culture of death. He’s saying it’s bad to be obsessed with it to the point of putting Jesus in the back seat. The devil wants us to be caught up with all the problems in the world, and doesn’t want us focused on Jesus.

Unfortunately, the NYT will use this as another opportunity to say “Good Francis, Bad Benedict”, when he’s just repeating the same message as his predecessor: Look to Jesus.

Very good post interpreting what Pope Francis really meant. Catholics (and non-Catholics) take note.

 

[newsmike]

Seemed to work for him, why can’t it work for us?

Point is it’s not. examiner.com/article/planned-parenthood-reports-record-number-of-abortions-2012

 

[einna]

I believe that we are not actually teaching when we say “Who am I to judge.” If we are unwilling to condemn certain behaviors and take the soft middle on everything, then in the end do we really stand for anything anyway? The political correctness of this desire to “not judge” will make us irrelevant. After all, are we teaching by saying, “Don’t do this, unless you really want to?”

Well it sounds like you are contradicting the Pope and the Head of your Church which is something you will have to deal with as long as he is Pope. I am saying he is focusing on a different part of our faith.

It is not you job to condemn. The Church does not teach that at all. It is your good to teach, guide, and speak of the what might come if they do not change their ways. It is simple not your place to say someone is going to help for their sin, that is for God and only God to decide.

 

[Geo17]

Hate the sin, but love the sinner. I agree with that. And yes Jesus sat and ate with all kinds of sinners, but He didn’t tell them they could keep sinning and gain eternal life anyway.

I have been liking Pope Francis because he wants to make peace, especially with the non fanatical Muslims. Which is most of them.

But when it comes to homosexuality and abortion a hard and fast rule must be applied. If people do this it is a sin. And the more aware they are that it is a sin, the more grievous the sin is. I know that me myself didn’t understand what abortion was until I saw a very graphic abortion done on TV. I didn’t realize that a living child was being torn to death, and pulled out. The answer is to make sure we men never make a woman pregnant unless we have both agreed to having a child. And the same for a woman. Make sure you don’t accidentally become pregnant. And for America, this means a whole new way to live. But it’s the only answer that isn’t a sin.

Homosexuality is a harder problem. It means living without having sex with a partner. If you do, it’s a sin. If 2 gays marry, legally, the church can’t accept them. If it does, then all the people who made abrupt and foolish marriages, that have divorced and remarried must also be accepted. Otherwise the church is discriminating in favor of gays, and against straight couples. IMHO

 

[Cider]

3000 babies murdered in the womb every day - in the US alone - and the Pope has nothing to say on their behalf?

Jesus said the world will hate his followers. What does it say about Pope Francis that the world loves him?

Very interesting point there.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Very good post interpreting what Pope Francis really meant. Catholics (and non-Catholics) take note.

Thank you. :tiphat:

 

[AdvanceAlways]

Well it sounds like you are contradicting the Pope and the Head of your Church which is something you will have to deal with as long as he is Pope. I am saying he is focusing on a different part of our faith.

It is not you job to condemn. The Church does not teach that at all. It is your good to teach, guide, and speak of the what might come if they do not change their ways. It is simple not your place to say someone is going to help for their sin, that is for God and only God to decide.

But it is our place to guide people away from error.

 

[einna]

Okay… so as Catholics we are supposed to be following Jesus’ teachings and actions in the Bible right? I just don’t remember him throwing stones at the adultress and codemning the tax collectors and prostitutes. Actually, he hung out with them at dinner. Now we have the Catholic Church. Seemed to work for him, why can’t it work for us?

 

[manualman]

One issue we face today as Christians is not clearly addressed in Scripture or by Christ in the gospels as far as I can tell.

Did Jesus start conversations by condemning the adulteress or the tax collector? Nope.

But is that directly relevant? Was there a widespread effort among the Jewish people of Jesus’ day to declare it morally GOOD for a woman to sleep with men not their husbands? Was there a sizable PR campaign to morally rationalize the embezzling endemic to the profession of tax collecting in the day? I’m aware of neither.

What do you suppose Sandra Fluke (for example) would say to Jesus if she encountered him on the street? I’m not really sure.

It’s one thing to be mercifully silent to those painfully aware of their sin out of love for them. It’s quite another to smile and nod at those who vigorously proclaim that their sins are VIRTUES. I’m not sure we have divine direction on that one. What do you guys say?