Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

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Please believe me, I wish I could say otherwise unfortunately P. Francis needs to place his utterances in full context.
In view of the cultural and political battles of today why are the contentions regarding abortion, homosexuality et. al. “out of balance”?

I am a protestant trying my hardest to find good reasons for making a bridge possible across the Tiber but am continuously confounded by these kinds of proclamations.

Yes, I fully understand the spectacular elements of the press are often misleading (NY Times etc) however the tension between the headlines and the actual wording of the interview need to be addressed more comprehensively. Anecdotal rebuttals are no longer adequate. As much as I would like to help, the burden for setting such issues straight as today’s news about what P. Francis has said will have to fall on the loyal Catholics.

I wish you well, I really mean that.
 
opus101 said:
From reading this article in the NCReg, it becomes clearer what the Holy Father was saying. ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-francis-gives-major-interview-to-the-jesuits/

We cannot focus entirely on “issues”, etc., without reference to the Gospel. It has to be in a context. To omit this (IMO) is to run the risk of politicization of the issue, which polarizes groups of people in response to it.
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But since when has it not had that context? Maybe we are living in two totally different dimensions or something. I never recall anyone saying, “Oh yes, I operate crisis pregnancy centers and pray outside of Planned Slaughterhood regularly 'cause the money is great.” I’m not saying that’s what you mean. I’m just trying to understand when where the abortion stuff has been taken out of the authentic Christian moral context.

If this is true, then that would seem to imply that people who work with the poor are automatically assumed to be working in the Christian context, no?
 
gracepoole said:
I can’t think of a reason one can’t become obsessed with the poor. Obsession by its nature is dangerous. But if we must obsess, let us fan out and obsess with equal fervor – each according to his or her passions and talents – to bring attention to all aspects of Christ’s message. Surely that can’t be distressing to any Catholic.
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holyrood said:
Poor, dangerous Mother Teresa.
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First, what does the Church teach about obsession? Second, see the section in bold above.
holyrood said:
With all due respect, that’s already happening. There are already millions of Catholics devoting energy to the poor, to catechism, to music ministry, to working in slums, to education where there would otherwise be none…and on and on and on.
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Agreed. And yet that’s not what’s evidenced here or in many Catholic outlets. Or is the pope just out of touch?
 
As the hours go by, media outlets continue to celebrate this as a victory for the LGBT agena, a victory for abortion rights, etc. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again; regardless of intent of the Pope, this is the result: perceived license to dissent.
 
gracepoole said:
Agreed. And yet that’s not what’s evidenced here or in many Catholic outlets. Or is the pope just out of touch?
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I think a popular perception amongst the more right-of-center Catholics (for lack of a better term) is that there are already, always have been and always will be lots of Catholics working in the field of care for the poor, but that, for a variety of reasons, the pro-life movement in the Church (I think because it is new generally) is more difficult to stock and staff, you might say.
AdvanceAlways said:
As the hours go by, media outlets continue to celebrate this as a victory for the LGBT agena, a victory for abortion rights, etc. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again; regardless of intent of the Pope, this is the result: perceived license to dissent.
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Yes, essentially, this seems to be the basic and concise result of this. I have said all along that the intent, however good (and I agree with that), does not change the result of what actually happens.
 
YoungTradCath said:
I think a popular perception amongst the more right-of-center Catholics (for lack of a better term) is that there are already, always have been and always will be lots of Catholics working in the field of care for the poor, but that, for a variety of reasons, the pro-life movement in the Church (I think because it is new generally) is more difficult to stock and staff, you might say.

Yes, essentially, this seems to be the basic and concise result of this. I have said all along that the intent, however good (and I agree with that), does not change the result of what actually happens.
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Exactly. The fact that I’ve been told by alleged Catholics today (not here on CAF) that I’m now in the wrong on abortion is sickening.
 
YoungTradCath said:
I think a popular perception amongst the more right-of-center Catholics (for lack of a better term) is that there are already, always have been and always will be lots of Catholics working in the field of care for the poor, but that, for a variety of reasons, the pro-life movement in the Church (I think because it is new generally) is more difficult to stock and staff, you might say.
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Huh. This isn’t my experience in parishes. In nearly all of the parishes I’ve attended (seven with regularity), there has been a very active pro-life group that was omnipresent. But in all but two of these parishes, there weren’t any sustained efforts to benefit the poor beyond diocesan appeals and the occasional canned good drive around Christmas and the like. To be fair, the other two parishes are exceptionally involved in fighting poverty both locally and globally. But for me, this kind of community has always been more difficult to locate on a parish level. Or are you speaking of non-parish organizations?
 
YoungTradCath said:
But since when has it not had that context? Maybe we are living in two totally different dimensions or something. I never recall anyone saying, “Oh yes, I operate crisis pregnancy centers and pray outside of Planned Slaughterhood regularly 'cause the money is great.” I’m not saying that’s what you mean. I’m just trying to understand when where the abortion stuff has been taken out of the authentic Christian moral context.

If this is true, then that would seem to imply that people who work with the poor are automatically assumed to be working in the Christian context, no?
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I think what he meant (IMO) was that those issues cannot be discussed sufficiently with reporters with quick sound-bite answers. They need in-depth treatment in relation to the Gospel. He was telling them that they (he said “we”, but I think he was referring to them) cannot insist on focussing solely on those issues all the time. This was his way of evading having a quick response to those issues taken out of context, but look what good it did. Oy.

The headline for this thread is incorrect. The Pope was not faulting the Church, but the press/reporters. He said “we” in the sense of “Let’s” not get out of hand (meaning them).
 
gracepoole said:
Huh. This isn’t my experience in parishes. In nearly all of the parishes I’ve attended (seven with regularity), there has been a very active pro-life group that was omnipresent. But in all but two of these parishes, there weren’t any sustained efforts to benefit the poor beyond diocesan appeals and the occasional canned good drive around Christmas and the like. To be fair, the other two parishes are exceptionally involved in fighting poverty both locally and globally. But for me, this kind of community has always been more difficult to locate on a parish level. Or are you speaking of non-parish organizations?
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Exact opposite in my case. In almost every parish I’ve attended, there has been an endless stream of left wing social justice groups, with bare lip service paid toward pro life issues. There has to be a place for helping the poor and defending the unborn. Can you see why us pro life activists are concerned with the Pope’s words?
 
gracepoole said:
Huh. This isn’t my experience in parishes. In nearly all of the parishes I’ve attended (seven with regularity), there has been a very active pro-life group that was omnipresent. But in all but two of these parishes, there weren’t any sustained efforts to benefit the poor beyond diocesan appeals and the occasional canned good drive around Christmas and the like. To be fair, the other two parishes are exceptionally involved in fighting poverty both locally and globally. But for me, this kind of community has always been more difficult to locate on a parish level. Or are you speaking of non-parish organizations?
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Almost every parish has a SVP society, even the most liberal. They have food drives, toy drives, clothing drives, and maybe even turkey drives. Tell them “we are funding Africa” and they will sing Kumbaya with you and donate the cash.

Pro-life group? Well, a few people who show up and sometimes not even allowed to form in one’s parish.

Even the Atheists vocally do charity for crying out loud. I am not even sure how you can even think your argument is valid. An atheist will more likely identify themselves as a charitable person but not as a pro-life person.
 
gracepoole said:
Huh. This isn’t my experience in parishes. In nearly all of the parishes I’ve attended (seven with regularity), there has been a very active pro-life group that was omnipresent. But in all but two of these parishes, there weren’t any sustained efforts to benefit the poor beyond diocesan appeals and the occasional canned good drive around Christmas and the like.
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This is the total opposite of the way things are in my area!
I think some of the misunderstandings on CAF have to do with huge differences in our dioceses/parishes.
 
lovetheworld said:
Of course I love everyone… I belive many people may be misguided, but that does not mean you don’t love them… and it certanly does not help my soul to keep anger, or hateful feelings towards anyone… George Bush included.
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But you seem to be supporting people based upon their feelings and your perception that they’re “not hurting anyone.”

I pointed out numerous examples where sexual revolutionaries directly effect myself and society at large. In fact, our entire society-- the abortion clinics, the objectification of women as sex objects, the spread of pornography, etc-- can all be tied back to sexual revolutionaries, of which homosexual supporters are just one part of.

We don’t judge people based upon how they FEEL they are doing. Both sexual revolutionaries and laissez-faire Capitalists truly, honestly believe they’re doing the right thing.

Yet you call me barbaric for “judging” (i.e. disagreeing) with sexual revolutionaries, but consider yourself enlightened for judging laissez-faire Capitalists who truly believe they’re doing good.

My point is that you are judging by a subjective emotionally centered standard. The point isn’t “don’t be a big meany and don’t judge people.” The point is that everyone has a canon of morality, and that everyone judges someone as outside of that canon. For me it’s sexual revolutionaries, and for you it’s laissez-faire Capitalists. But to pretend that I’m the barbaric “judger” and you’re not is simply incorrect. Both of us have a canon of morality, and both of us judge some beliefs or actions as immoral.

To say that someone who disagrees with you is barbaric is wrong. The writers of the Constitution went out of their way to protect people with a minority opinion from such insane logic and argumentation.
 
The pope is absolutely correct. However the impression people are getting from secular headlines is deceptive. Homosexual acts and abortion will always be sinful and evil acts; and the pope reasserts the Church’s teaching on this; however his point is that these two issues do not define the Christian message.

The goal of Christianity is not to merely follow rules— the Pharisees were very good at only following rules–and condemning those who broke the rules.

What Christ teaches through His Church is that we are called to be transformed— sanctified into the person God wants us to be with the grace He has given us within the circumstances of our life.

Yes, homosexual acts and abortion will land you in hell, but so will dishonesty, greed, hate, un-forgiveness, pride, and along list of other sins. To reduce Catholicism to merely theological truths and to become Catholic because Catholicism teaches the truth is is to miss the point of Catholicism itself–The Catholic Church is on earth to help wretched sinners become saints, and the first step is repent of our sins out of love for God, not out of fear of breaking rules.

img7.imageshack.us/img7/3672/o3v7.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img205/8827/virtuejoy.jpg
 
opus101 said:
This is the total opposite of the way things are in my area!
I think some of the misunderstandings on CAF have to do with huge differences in our dioceses/parishes.
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I think its more to do with how one parses the information they see. The fact that

Poverty solvers > Pro-life workers

is a fact. Why? You have almost universal agreement on helping the poor. It’s built in to society. But Pro-life? You have almost universal agreement that women should have the right to choose.

So I am not sure any area is different.
 
To quote a priest’s homily I heard 2 weeks ago, “the Church is not an NGO.” Charity, work for the poor, etc, is all wonderful and part of the Gospel message, but if it isn’t backed up in doctrine then it is meaningless.
 
Fevronia said:
Almost every parish has a SVP society, even the most liberal. They have food drives, toy drives, clothing drives, and maybe even turkey drives. Tell them “we are funding Africa” and they will sing Kumbaya with you and donate the cash.

Pro-life group? Well, a few people who show up and sometimes not even allowed to form in one’s parish.

Even the Atheists vocally do charity for crying out loud. I am not even sure how you can even think your argument is valid. An atheist will more likely identify themselves as a charitable person but not as a pro-life person.
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I have to laugh a bit because I’ve not ever heard of the SVP society (guessing, of course, that it’s St. Vincent dePaul?). But I’m not laughing at your depiction of “liberal” parishes. 🤷

As for the validity of my “argument,” to what specifically are you referring?
 
Gabriel_Serafin said:
The pope is absolutely correct. However the impression people are getting from secular headlines is deceptive. Homosexual acts and abortion will always be sinful and evil acts; and the pope reasserts the Church’s teaching on this; however his point is that these two issues do not define the Christian message.
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You can correct me here but this is the message I get
  1. Lets not talk about / emphasize abortion too much because we want to draw people in
  2. This is what God will want us to do for he is merciful
The problem here for most of us is

1a) We know millions of innocent children are murdered by abortion
2a) God does not tolerate the shedding of the blood of innocents
3a) So we must be doing all we can to stop it

So there is a contradiction. One cannot help but feel torn. If you can reconcile these two, I am sure most of us here will feel comforted. Do you have an answer?
 
Seriously, if a Pope - any pope - speaks to the media, should we really have to spend 33 pages discussing whether or not what he said was actually Catholic and supportive of Catholic evangelization?

The whole interview was a disaster. Many of the faithful are scandalised and upset while the liberal media are loving all this as if the Pope had given their views on abortion and gay marriage the papal tick of approval.

A complete and utter disaster.
 
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