- Status
T
The_Bucket
Guest
Golly gee, that sounds a lot like JP2 and B16’s condemnation of the “culture of death” doesn’t it? Guys, the pope is still Catholic. Ok?
Z
zab
Guest
Oh that came from the secular press. Here is a better article:
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1303991.htm
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
See…
A
AdvanceAlways
Guest
I almost like “Culture of Waste” better than culture of death. Death is natural, but waste implies so much more; murder, poverty, etc.
S
sacredcow
Guest
The Pope is not saying anything new at all, and the press is making it seem that way. What is different is his conversational style. All the Pope has said is that you can’t moralize apart from the Gospel, and the starting point for true moral behavior is conversion.
I haven’t found anything new in his statements as compared to say JPII or Benedict. Francis is just able to very simply express a broader understanding of faith.
simply put: when I challenge a Catholic democrat, I don’t start by telling them they have sinned and are supporting abortion, I start by asking them, “Would Jesus support a program that defends the killing of unborn children?”
How we approach people has to focus on Christ, not the issue.
I haven’t found anything new in his statements as compared to say JPII or Benedict. Francis is just able to very simply express a broader understanding of faith.
simply put: when I challenge a Catholic democrat, I don’t start by telling them they have sinned and are supporting abortion, I start by asking them, “Would Jesus support a program that defends the killing of unborn children?”
How we approach people has to focus on Christ, not the issue.
T
The_Bucket
Guest
Yes. I think both are salient but “culture of waste” is truer to Francis’ point that the Truth is fully connected and cannot be separated. It’s not either/or. It’s AND. Francis is quite right to tie social justice matters to protection of the unborn.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
Good point. I started to look back over some of the older posts in the thread…
This is just a new thought that popped into my head, so I could easily be way off base, but I wonder if the confusion around these things are not that bad of a thing. To speak very generally, the conservative Catholics who misunderstand him are not likely to abandon their faith over something such as this. And the liberal secularists who misunderstand him probably would not have given the Catholic Church any consideration at all were it not for their misunderstanding. But then maybe this will cause them to draw closer to Christ. And in drawing closer, then there might be conversion. And with conversion, perhaps the realization that change in their life is needed. Which will eventually lead to embracing all the teaching.
Maybe I’m being overly optimistic.
M
manualman
Guest
Let’s face it, being pope is a hard job. Everybody tries to “manage” you. I like that Francis refuses to be managed. But I am worried that he’s not concerned about how some statements and decisions can easily be manipulated and twisted by those of ill will. Here’s a classic example of how this interview got molested:
“Pope Francis Joins Catholic Civil War” usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/09/19/pope-francis-gays-abortion-contraception-column/2839493/
This is the exact sort of manipulation and twisting that the secular culture has been doing on catholic leaders for my whole lifetime. You’d think we’d eventually develop better defenses. The same thing happened to Paul VI on contraception. Here the guy has the intellectual honesty to gather those best able to articulate arguments FOR contraception so that he could honestly say that he considered both sides. But when he decides their arguments lacked merit, the headlines scream “Pope Ignores Advisors and Clamps Down!” This is exactly the same sort of thing.
I agree with everything the pope said in that interview. I just wish he were a little more personally savvy about how his words could be twisted and exploited by those determined to rationalize their sins into virtues.
“Pope Francis Joins Catholic Civil War” usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/09/19/pope-francis-gays-abortion-contraception-column/2839493/
This is the exact sort of manipulation and twisting that the secular culture has been doing on catholic leaders for my whole lifetime. You’d think we’d eventually develop better defenses. The same thing happened to Paul VI on contraception. Here the guy has the intellectual honesty to gather those best able to articulate arguments FOR contraception so that he could honestly say that he considered both sides. But when he decides their arguments lacked merit, the headlines scream “Pope Ignores Advisors and Clamps Down!” This is exactly the same sort of thing.
I agree with everything the pope said in that interview. I just wish he were a little more personally savvy about how his words could be twisted and exploited by those determined to rationalize their sins into virtues.
P
PumpkinCookie
Guest
If what Pope Francis said is “no big deal” or “just business as usual” then why has a 43 page thread come into existence here over night? Why are there thousands of comments on various news websites about this?
Fact is, it may be true that what Pope Francis has said is “business as usual” but in our times it doesn’t really matter what Popes say, but rather what people want to hear and what the media tells them to hear.
Remember, according to most people and the media, Blessed Pope John Paul II told us there is no hell, and Pope Benedict told us condoms are OK sometimes. Now Pope Francis says abortion, homosexuality, and contraception don’t need to be talked about much anymore, because they don’t matter as much as being nice to everyone and tolerating everyone.
None are so deaf as those who refuse to listen.
Fact is, it may be true that what Pope Francis has said is “business as usual” but in our times it doesn’t really matter what Popes say, but rather what people want to hear and what the media tells them to hear.
Remember, according to most people and the media, Blessed Pope John Paul II told us there is no hell, and Pope Benedict told us condoms are OK sometimes. Now Pope Francis says abortion, homosexuality, and contraception don’t need to be talked about much anymore, because they don’t matter as much as being nice to everyone and tolerating everyone.
None are so deaf as those who refuse to listen.
T
The_Bucket
Guest
I don’t think you are overly optimistic. I think Francis is a very intelligent person who is better connected to people “on the ground” and knows what it takes to at least plant the seed. I won’t vacillate. I’ll sin to be sure, but attempts to woo “the other side” are not going to shake me. We are all beloved sons and daughters of Christ. I want the prodigal sons and daughters to return home to their Father Christ and their Mother Church. I will not be the older son and resent the fact that my father is focusing on the runaways while I am toiling in the fields. For I have plenty of my own faults and there have been plenty of times where I have been the prodigal son and there will be more. I only pray that my Father will await my return as He awaits everyone else’s as well.Good point. I started to look back over some of the older posts in the thread…
This is just a new thought that popped into my head, so I could easily be way off base, but I wonder if the confusion around these things are not that bad of a thing. To speak very generally, the conservative Catholics who misunderstand him are not likely to abandon their faith over something such as this. And the liberal secularists who misunderstand him probably would not have given the Catholic Church any consideration at all were it not for their misunderstanding. But then maybe this will cause them to draw closer to Christ. And in drawing closer, then there might be conversion. And with conversion, perhaps the realization that change in their life is needed. Which will eventually lead to embracing all the teaching.
Maybe I’m being overly optimistic.
V
Veridical16
Guest
You are no more free than a child who abandons his imperfect father or mother, no matter the age, free from honoring them and praying for them every day while they are with you on Earth.
If you can confess your sins to a local priest who is personally flawed even, lost the faith, but confers the sacraments correctly, then you can acknowledge the office of Peter.
There is no freedom outside the Church, only slavery to pride and you’re left wide open to the deceptions of the devil. (see: Martin Luther’s progression get worse and worse)
His mother said to follow Jesus and Jesus said to listen to his apostles. The only Catholics who are open to being moved by the pope’s personal foibles are ones who have a lack in their prayer lives.
A
AdvanceAlways
Guest
I spoke with an old friend on the phone just minutes ago regarding this whole matter and he had some wise words, which certainly calmed me down a bit. This is what he had to say on it (somewhat paraphrasing):
“The dissidents who dissented yesterday will dissent today. The pro choicers will still be pro choice tomorrow. Those who hate the Church today will hate it tomorrow. The question is, what will you do about that? Will you yell at them, or will you show then why you love the Church and why you love Jesus? Francis would ask you the same thing.”
“The dissidents who dissented yesterday will dissent today. The pro choicers will still be pro choice tomorrow. Those who hate the Church today will hate it tomorrow. The question is, what will you do about that? Will you yell at them, or will you show then why you love the Church and why you love Jesus? Francis would ask you the same thing.”
H
holyrood
Guest
My problem with much of this is that it seems to me an attack on the many good and faithful priests and laity, accusing them of having been heartless, uncharitable, and focusing, in a judgmental way no less, on ‘only’ abortion, homosexuality, and birth control, when such is hardly the case. As evidenced by the fact that anyone here who’s commented on that can barely remember a single homily on these subjects.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/pope-francis-identifies-with-regular-catholics/2013/09/19/042d1b18-2186-11e3-a358-1144dee636dd_story.html
“Pope Francis identifies with regular Catholics”
Yes, it has given ammunition and just made it harder to be a good Catholic and stand up for the Church’s teachings.
From the above article, bottom of page 1:
If this is really how the Pope feels, I can only say, thank you, Francis, for the slap in the face. I continue to hope he has been woefully mischaracterized by those determined to believe the Church will finally preach immorality. Sadly, his own words make that hard to believe.
He is absolutely right–and every true Christian already knew it and was practicing it–that we must meet people where they are with love and compassion. Christian AIDS hospices, crisis pregnancy centers and more were already doing this. It is a ridiculous charge that they were busy chastising and lambasting these people.
But Francis could have said the same thing without calling anyone small-minded or obsessed. Furthermore, I find it ironic that some people on this thread are lecturing others about supposedly being judgmental. Isn’t that in itself judgmental? Not to mention claiming to know someone else’s heart and mind?
A
anglicanusepapa
Guest
H
holyrood
Guest
And this is exactly my frustration. I agree with your friend. And yet, it implies that there *were *millions of Catholics out there screaming and yelling at people to begin with. I’m sure there are some unpleasant people among Catholics (in fact, I know some of them), but I personally have seen only love, gentleness, and kindness among those the many Catholics and pro-life workers I’ve known.
I, myself, have relatives and good friends, even very close friends, who are gay, liberal, pagan, a barely-former swinger in an open marriage, atheists, pro-abortion, etc. I have one who consistently bashes the church, and I continually respond without yelling or name-calling, even in the face of some very ugly things being said to me or in my presence about the Catholic Church, pro-lifers, conservatives, Christians, etc. (And btw, these people are bringing the topics up about 90% or more of the time, not me.)
And now my own pope appears to be suggesting I am small-minded and obsessed? Now people are going to paint a whole bunch of us as having been yelling and hateful and judgmental when it simply wasn’t happening?
B
Barish
Guest
Wisdom.
I was put off at first by the reports, but I had a feeling that Francis was actually leading the Church to Christ rather than being misquoted. I am follow the doctrines and teachings of the Magisterium, but Francis is waking me to the role of mercy that I have often felt called to.
I have a friend who had an abortion. I never felt the need to point out to her that it was wrong. You could tell she knew.
I have taken a line with my gay friends and colleagues that it is no more wrong than premarital sex and divorce (I’m guilty). It opens the door to some great moral philosophy discussion inspired by Christ’s teachings through the Magisterium.
Before dismissing me as some liberal, cafeteria Catholic, I want you to know that i attend daily mass before every day I work and don’t miss regular mass. It don’t eat meat on Fridays and I have just one too few kids at 6. I listen at mass and it seems that Christ calls my naturally conservative and doctrine loving self to mercy and charity which I fail at regularly, but less than before and I pray for the grace to get better almost daily.
I loved Benedict and read several of his books. I need Francis and the Church he leads.
A
AdvanceAlways
Guest
Trust me, I understand your frustration and I completely agree with you. I know what you mean about family members who bash the Church. The Pope’s statement still indeed contained troubling elements, especially in regards to the small minded and obsessed lines. Do remember though, an interview is not infallible. If people attempt to use Francis’ words to bash your faith, just remember the Gospel; you will be hated because of Christ.
T
The_Bucket
Guest
holyrood, keep in mind that the question posed to him was from a priest and they were discussing pastoral issues. It’s not meant as a judgment of you, it’s a reminder about how to take a pastoral approach and be welcoming to everyone.
Like I said earlier, Ignatian spirituality places great emphasis on the power of sin and the struggle between Satan and the Lord for our souls. If the Church is the field hospital, we the laity are the soldiers… but the clergy are the medics. He is just asking them to act like medics and not soldiers.
Like I said earlier, Ignatian spirituality places great emphasis on the power of sin and the struggle between Satan and the Lord for our souls. If the Church is the field hospital, we the laity are the soldiers… but the clergy are the medics. He is just asking them to act like medics and not soldiers.
- Status