Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[saveusfromhell]

Great, you are a good Catholic, I on the other hand still need a lot of work.

so now you know me, your on a roll

 

[steve_b]

Well, to be fair to both sides, isn’t that what gets communicated? There are some parts of the interview where the Pope does seem to be clearly departing from the way the Church used to be in the past with respect to the pastoral approach.

To me, the problem with a liberal pastoral approach is that one cannot say if the person is holding orthodox doctrine or liberal doctrine. So to the media, the Pope appears exactly as they describe him. What basis can we have to blame if they then infer that changes are coming?

Also, in a time where the issue is not that people are unaware of “God loves you” but are more critical of his existence and his requirement of a moral law, what does this pastoral strategy accomplish?

Here’s how I’m understanding this

When you said

“I think its more common today to hear all about love and ZERO on morals. Isn’t LOVE also suppossed to be about doing the will of God and obeying his commandments?”

*I said I agree. In my parish I never hear about consequences. That"*s ZERO balance. It’s totally unbalanced.

However, what I quoted from the pope was the followiong

first* proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. *
*Then *you have to do catechesis. *
Then you can draw even a moral consequence. *
But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing."

Notice the pope doesn’t leave out catechisis, & moral consequences. His therefore, IS a balanced approach.

 

[Fevronia]

Here’s how I’m understanding this

When you said

“I think its more common today to hear all about love and ZERO on morals. Isn’t LOVE also suppossed to be about doing the will of God and obeying his commandments?”
**
*I said I agree. In my parish I never hear about consequences. That"*s ZERO balance. It’s totally unbalanced.

However, what I quoted from the pope was the followiong

first* proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. *
Then you have to do catechesis. *
Then you can draw even a moral consequence. *
But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing*."*

Notice the pope includes catechisis, & moral consequences. This IS a balanced approach.

Yes but my point is that what you have today is the opposite in terms of “too much love” no mention of morals. The Pope’s comments suggest that we need to go even far more in that same direction. So it seems like he made a mistake if we were to interpret all of it that way. If anything, there should have been an emphasis in the other way, no?

 

[L_Reynolds]

It was pretty predictable actually. But thanks for sharing and welcome to the forum. That open honestly, would you say Pope Francis has that down cold? Ah yes, I understand all may not agree or like it, but you can’t fault him there.

please explain predictable and any inferring dis-satisfaction upfront . I will drop by tom possibly and want to say some of the comments are really interesting and glad to join, the reading looks terrific here.

 

[Julianna]

Does genuine “Love” in your thinking exclude correction and reproach? Can you define the definition of “Love” you use so that it will help us discuss more about it?

When I held my son in my arms after he was born. …I felt genuine pure love for him. I knew tbat my love for him was the first step. As he grew up and his sister came along my husband and I added the “correction” with love.

Don’t think the correction comes before the love.

 

[Fevronia]

When I held my son in my arms after he was born. …I felt genuine pure love for him. I knew tbat my love for him was the first step. As he grew up and his sister came along my husband and I added the “correction” with love.

Don’t think the correction comes before the love.

What is this “Love” you speak of? Can you define it? So far I am leaning more toward an extreme emotional attraction you felt. Do you think Jesus is speaking of that sort of love in his sermons?

 

[steve_b]

Yes but my point is that what you have today is the opposite in terms of “too much love” no mention of morals. The Pope’s comments suggest that we need to go even far more in that same direction. So it seems like he made a mistake if we were to interpret all of it that way. If anything, there should have been an emphasis in the other way, no?

Being transparent I think it’s an issue in those parishes that don’t preach consequences for sin and everybody is okay.

 

[Julianna]

What is this “Love” you speak of? Can you define it? So far I am leaning more toward an extreme emotional attraction you felt. Do you think Jesus is speaking of that sort of love in his sermons?

Love is an emotion. My children are gift from God. He has blessed us with two beautiful lives. He has sacrificed Himself because He loves me. He knows my heart…you do not. Being of Italian descent adds to it…

 

[Fevronia]

Being transparent I think it’s an issue in those parishes that don’t preach consequences for sin and everybody is okay.

Well we know as a whole that these parishes do not preach not only consequences but the existence of sins themselves. This is a common policy taken after Vatican II that Bl. JP II himself tried to correct by sending out a list of “Liturgical Abuses”. The idea of feel good homilies was rejected in it as liturgical abuse.

We still haven’t recovered from it but we are told that we have too much emphasis on morality. That does not make sense, right?

 

[L_Reynolds]

Its the wording which is being changed from Gods Blessing and state of the soul to endorsement.

The translation to endorsement leaves out the issue of the state of grace and leaves Gods approving a blanket given with no incentive for the state of grace achieved at the immediate moment of reconciliation. There is no reconciliation potential in a Gods blanket endorsement and this is why, those words are not used for the humble faithful.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

ncregister.com/daily-news/interviewer-says-pope-francis-adherence-to-church-teaching-on-abortion-is-c/

snip

VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis is “absolutely clear” about Catholic teaching on abortion, but his first focus is to bring God’s salvation to everyone, “most of all sinners,” says the Jesuit priest whose lengthy papal interview was published yesterday.

Read more: ncregister.com/daily-news/interviewer-says-pope-francis-adherence-to-church-teaching-on-abortion-is-c/#ixzz2fTMZoJ1I

 

[livingwordunity]

The secular news “mainstream media” is going to ignore this because it doesn’t fit with their obsessive abortion and “gay” lobbying agenda.

 

[k5thbeatle]

As much as we can interpret his words to simply be a call to evangelize with the Gospel, can anyone here deny that this will give credence to clergy who support same sex marriage or who downplay the evil of abortion? That this will give credence to pro-choice “Catholics” and gay “marriage” activists?

I must admit I am somewhat confused and have to agree here with this post. Already I’ve read two articles where this (the last sentence specifically) has already happened as both stated “liberal Catholics” (I dislike that term greatly) are taking heart at the recent comments! ???

 

[einna]

The Pope describes himself as a sinner. There are few times I am in Church that we are not reminded that we are all sinners, but that if we are truly sorry and ask for forgiveness that God have mercy on us. I don’t think he is saying that because God loves us we don’t not have to worry about sinning, We must be truly sorry and try to do better each and everyday.

 

[Fevronia]

Love is an emotion. My children are gift from God. He has blessed us with two beautiful lives. He has sacrificed Himself because He loves me. He knows my heart…you do not. Being of Italian descent adds to it…

I am not sure you defined what love is rather than just stated sentences that used the word, yes? The thing is, its hard to grasp it by example and it would be better if you can provide a definition. Can you do that?

Oh and “Love” is not an emotion. It is primarily in the will. That is a teaching of the Church.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

I must admit I am somewhat confused and have to agree here with this post. Already I’ve read two articles where this (the last sentence specifically) has already happened as both stated “liberal Catholics” (I dislike that term greatly) are taking heart at the recent comments! ???

While I generally stand by that post of mine, what matters at the end of the day is that this is not what the Pope was saying. The liberals can say until they are blue in the face that the pro lifers should shut up and the Pope says so too, but that isn’t the case.

You would have thought that yesterday was the greatest day since the Resurrection for the liberals, but already today, we have Pope Francis condemning abortion and the interviewer saying that of course Francis upholds the Church’s teaching on abortion. Liberals will always dissent. Did this give them some seeming ammo? Yea, it did. But if they want to dig further, they will realize they aren’t getting some progressive hero, they are getting a man who believes in the dignity of all human life. Francis isn’t Benedict, and some of us right wingers will have to get used to that, but Francis is our Pope, and as the Jesuit who gave the interview said today, conservative and progressive are not the paradigms in which Francis views the Church. Jesus has taken us this far with the Church, and he will not fail us now.

 

[Havard]

The Pope describes himself as a sinner. There are few times I am in Church that we are not reminded that we are all sinners, but that if we are truly sorry and ask for forgiveness that God have mercy on us. I don’t think he is saying that because God loves us we don’t not have to worry about sinning, We must be truly sorry and try to do better each and everyday.

Amen.

 

[Fevronia]

The Pope describes himself as a sinner. There are few times I am in Church that we are not reminded that we are all sinners, but that if we are truly sorry and ask for forgiveness that God have mercy on us. I don’t think he is saying that because God loves us we don’t not have to worry about sinning, We must be truly sorry and try to do better each and everyday.

So doesn’t the scolding confessor remind you that you are a sinner?

On a side note, didn’t we live in the last 50 years where sin was never even mentioned in the pulpit and the entire emphasis was on love and mercy?

 

[AdvanceAlways]

So doesn’t the scolding confessor remind you that you are a sinner?

On a side note, didn’t we live in the last 50 years where sin was never even mentioned in the pulpit and the entire emphasis was on love and mercy?

Exactly Fevronia. I’d like to ask some of the posters here, can you honestly say that in the post Vatican II world, homilies and preaching have almost been exclusively about wishy washy feelings and emotions?

 

[steve_b]

Well we know as a whole that these parishes do not preach not only consequences but the existence of sins themselves. This is a common policy taken after Vatican II that Bl. JP II himself tried to correct by sending out a list of “Liturgical Abuses”. The idea of feel good homilies was rejected in it as liturgical abuse.

We still haven’t recovered from it but we are told that we have too much emphasis on morality. That does not make sense, right?

As Peter (our 1st pope ) said, knowledge of our faith is high on the list of 7 qualities he says we are to give our effort to in ever increasing amounts.

2 Pet 1:5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.

We can only make sure we personally know what the Church teaches given the avalanche of materials available, because we personally can’t pass onto others what we ourselves don’t have, and so that we pass that on with love regardless of who that other person is. .