Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[Brendan]

The AP is already a little confused.

Sheesh, did anyone there actually READ his statement. It should have not come as a surprise to anyone that he (and all of us) will continue to speak out against abortion and all evils.

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/theanchoress/files/2013/09/lede.png

 

[AdvanceAlways]

The AP is already a little confused.

Sheesh, did anyone there actually READ his statement. It should have not come as a surprise to anyone that he (and all of us) will continue to speak out against abortion and all evils.

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/theanchoress/files/2013/09/lede.png

Sheesh, did the AP even read the interview?

 

[Fevronia]

As Peter (our 1st pope ) said, knowledge of our faith is high on the list of 7 qualities he says we are to give our effort to in ever increasing amounts.

2 Pet 1:5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.

We can only make sure we personally know what the Church teaches given the avalanche of materials available, because we personally can’t pass onto others what we ourselves don’t have, and so that we pass that on with love regardless of who that other person is. .

Well I certainly do not disagree with you. The point though is that the Priest is suppossed to teach them both (as Pope Francis himself concludes). But we know that today the Priests do not do that at all but instead do tend to just emphasize “love” and “mercy”. But Pope Francis states as if we have to reduce preaching morals and increase the love and mercy message because that is what is keeping the faithful away from the Church. So then what will result is more reduction in the moral message and the continual preaching of the love/mercy message.

But what we see from our current track record is that parishes that just emphasize these things are not doing well. They had a big rise in numbers initially but now have died away.

On the other hand, countries like Asia and Africa where this love/mercy message is not so big and faith and morals are taught without any hesitation, we see a thriving.

So one cannot help but think this is not the way, right?

 

[Havard]

So doesn’t the scolding confessor remind you that you are a sinner?

On a side note, didn’t we live in the last 50 years where sin was never even mentioned in the pulpit and the entire emphasis was on love and mercy?

You make a good point. During my adolescence… well, all I’ll say is that I can’t begin to guess how many young Catholics I knew that thought oral sex was okay. I literally didn’t know any better until I was at least a sophomore in college.

 

[panevino]

This article is sort of relevant

m.theage.com.au/victoria/church-dumps-rebel-priest-20130920-2u5jp.html

“…Dissident priest Greg Reynolds has been both defrocked and excommunicated over his support for women priests and gays - the first person ever excommunicated in Melbourne, he believes.
The order comes direct from the Vatican, not at the request of Melbourne Archbishop Denis Hart, and apparently follows a secret denunciation in the best traditions of the inquisition, according to Father Reynolds.
The excommunication document - written in Latin and giving no reason - was dated May 31, meaning it comes under the authority of Pope Francis who made headlines on Thursday calling for a less rule-obsessed church…
…Father Reynolds, who resigned as a parish priest in 2011 and last year founded Inclusive Catholics, said he had expected to be laicised (defrocked), but not excommunicated. But it would make no difference to his ministry…”

 

[Julianna]

I am not sure you defined what love is rather than just stated sentences that used the word, yes? The thing is, its hard to grasp it by example and it would be better if you can provide a definition. Can you do that?

Oh and “Love” is not an emotion. It is primarily in the will. That is a teaching of the Church.

Not here to be your guinea pig darlin’. I gave you my tboughts. Good luck on your thesis…

 

[Lormar]

On a side note, didn’t we live in the last 50 years where sin was never even mentioned in the pulpit and the entire emphasis was on love and mercy?

Funny you should mention that because I just thought the same thing a few hours ago. We have already been doing the love and mercy for fifty years. That was one of the points in calling VII. Bl. John XXIII said we would now apply the balm of mercy, or something to that effect - I don’t recall his exact words.

 

[Fevronia]

Not here to be your guinea pig darlin’. I gave you my tboughts. Good luck on your thesis…

Well initially you stated your thoughts as Church teaching right? But if you admit that these are your personal thoughts, then all is well

 

[Lormar]

Exactly Fevronia. I’d like to ask some of the posters here, can you honestly say that in the post Vatican II world, homilies and preaching have almost been exclusively about wishy washy feelings and emotions?

I’ve lived in several dioceses and hear only generic homilies.

 

[Fevronia]

Funny you should mention that because I just thought the same thing a few hours ago. We have already been doing the love and mercy for fifty years. That was one of the points in calling VII. Bl. John XXIII said we would now apply the balm of mercy, or something to that effect - I don’t recall his exact words.

Yes, he said

“In his own way, John XXIII adopted this attitude with regard to the government of the church, when he repeated the motto, ‘See everything; turn a blind eye to much; correct a little.’ John XXIII saw all things, the maximum dimension, but he chose to correct a few, the minimum dimension.”

So we have already tried this out. I would say, to the best of my knowledge, it definitely did not work and only caused more confusion as Harvard above pointed out.

 

[Veridical16]

You are their to ask for God forgiveness. If you want to scold a sinner go right head, but that is not what the confessional is for. It is to find God love and mercy.

That’s an absolute position… and shortchanges the dynamic of how an individual priest ought to act or ought not to…
Just because the priest was moved by his bishop doesn’t mean that the priest was wrong for scolding. There are two sides to every story. He could have been wrong OR He could have not been and the sinner was prideful.

It is true that Jesus came for the sick, but sometimes, the sinner shouldn’t take advantage of the Lord’s mercy. Also just because a priest is moved, doesn’t mean they are a bad priest , many saints have been humbled and obeyed their superior even IF they did nothing wrong.

No one should be scolded after confessing their sins to a priest, no one.

Are you familiar with previous holy priests?? They weren’t always smiley faces.

In the sacrament of confession Padre Pio was very demanding. He couldn’t bear people that went to him only out of curiosity.

A monk once told the following story: "One day Padre Pio didn’t give absolution to a penitent and he told him:** “If you go to confess to another priest to have gain absolution you will go to hell together with him”. **He meant that the sacrament of confession is profaned by people that don’t want to change their lives. They are guilty in front of God.

padrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/Confess.htm

A spiritual son of Padre Pio who lived in Rome omitted out of shame to make his customary small reverence when he passed near to a church in the company of some friends. Suddenly he heard Padre Pio’s voice saying:** “Coward!” After a few days he went to San Giovanni Rotondo, where he was reproached by Padre Pio: “Be careful! This time I have only scolded you; next time I will give you a slap.**”

There has been this weird aspect of the Church that it’s either extreme mercy, or extreme justice, hen the Lord’s ways are not the ways of the world, and a sign of contradiction. Hence the lives the Saints being at odds, with many Catholics who like to make Jesus out to be some Teddy Bear.

Many in this thread would have said Padre Pio was wrong in his behavior…when he was being merciful by his discipline .

 

[Julianna]

Exactly Fevronia. I’d like to ask some of the posters here, can you honestly say that in the post Vatican II world, homilies and preaching have almost been exclusively about wishy washy feelings and emotions?

True story. My dad was standing in line for confession. Circa 1939. He was in jr high. He saw a classmate come out of tbe confessional in tears. My dad approached her and asked if she was ok. They stepped aside and she told him…“I told Fr. my mom served meat yesterday (Friday) and he scolded me and said my mother should have her hands cut off.” My dad walked his classmate home… and no he didn’t go to confession.

Yeah scolding really makes an impact. A negatve one. It wouldn’t have done any good to tell my grandparents what happened because they would say tbe Priest is always right. We know better now. Fr puts his pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else

 

[Fevronia]

True story. My dad was standing in line for confession. Circa 1939. He was in jr high. He saw a classmate come out of tbe confessional in tears. My dad approached her and asked if she was ok. They stepped aside and she told him…“I told Fr. my mom served meat yesterday (Friday) and he scolded me and said my mother should have her hands cut off.” My dad walked his classmate home… and no he didn’t go to confession.

Yeah scolding really makes an impact. A negatve one. It wouldn’t have done any good to tell my grandparents what happened because they would say tbe Priest is always right. We know better now. Fr putz his pants on one leg at a time.

Obviously he did not mean to actually cut her hands off.

One has to feel humility and when they go to confession, be ready to put up with what they have to. Our main reason for feeling so mad about getting scolded is our pride, is it not? Why can’t we use that as an opportunity considering it as much deserved penance for our actual sins?

The negative side of scolding in this sense can be nullified by accepting it as penances. What we cannot do is get a much deserved reproach and correction for our sins in an alternate way when the priest is emphasizing how “great we are for coming in to confession”. Where do we draw the line as to what is scolding? I have met some people today who find any form of correction to be “scolding” and unacceptable.

Wouldn’t it be more correct to say that the scolding system is the more suitable approach although it can have some bad cases. The bad cases can be nullified by our own pride so even the bad side can be turned in to a good.

Having ones pride knocked up a bit during confession is better than time in purgatory or worse, eternal torture that can be avoided by the instruction we receive and will not soon forget and building humility.

Note: Peter got down on his knees and wept asking the Lord to go away from him because of our sins. If we truly approach confession as Peter did, would we be angry if the Priest scolded us? We should be saying “we are sinners Lord and we do not even deserve your mercy”. But how can we then get upset when the priest happened to scold us? We are deserving of eternal torture for our sins and we are upset because the priest laid a scolding on us?

 

[Havard]

True story. My dad was standing in line for confession. Circa 1939. He was in jr high. He saw a classmate come out of tbe confessional in tears. My dad approached her and asked if she was ok. They stepped aside and she told him…“I told Fr. my mom served meat yesterday (Friday) and he scolded me and said my mother should have her hands cut off.” My dad walked his classmate home… and no he didn’t go to confession.

Yeah scolding really makes an impact. A negatve one. It wouldn’t have done any good to tell my grandparents what happened because they would say tbe Priest is always right. We know better now. Fr putz his pants on one leg at a time.

Sounds like a priest just said some nutty things. I’ve heard teachers say crazy things in their lessons, but it doesn’t mean learning is bad.

 

[Fevronia]

Sounds like a priest just said some nutty things. I’ve heard teachers say crazy things in their lessons, but it doesn’t mean learning is bad.

Exactly. It is our gut feeling sometimes to react in a generalized way against it as soon as we see the single instance. But we have to think about it and evaluate the cost. Great point with the example of teachers.

 

[livingwordunity]

I’ve lived in several dioceses and hear only generic homilies.

Same here. With the exception of EWTN, homilies about abortion or homosexuals are so rare that in the 20 years that I’ve been a Catholic the only time I can remember a homily that was about a political issue involving these was with the Fortnight for Freedom. And the Fortnight for Freedom was defensive in response to the unprecedented government threat to religious liberty. The “gay lobby” are the aggressors in this while Catholic Church has been in a defensive position trying to fend off attacks to our faith, marriage, and babies in the womb.

 

[SaintAugustine]

I think it is: “God loves you, and so do I. You and I are both sinners, but God loves us and I love you. Let’s work together to try to be better people, despite both our sins.” That message is true, honest and resonates with people.

We are basically saying the same thing. I wasn’t trying separate the person speaking as a non-sinner - just recognizing the fact that we don’t ignore sin; we just continue to love each other, regardless of our sinful natures.

 

[McCall1981]

The secular news “mainstream media” is going to ignore this because it doesn’t fit with their obsessive abortion and “gay” lobbying agenda.

This is exactly what I thought too, but I am VERY glad to see that the strong comments the Pope made today on abortion are getting A LOT of press; much, much more than I would have thought. The story has appeard on HuffPO, Wash Times, Yahoo, CBS, Fox, Reddit, NPR, AP, etc, and of course all of the Catholic media.

The more this story gets out there, it will go a long way towards undoing some of the damage from yesterday because it forces people to see that the teachings don’t change and that we need to keep talking about the moral issues. It undercuts the media’s false story entirely.

 

[einna]

While I generally stand by that post of mine, what matters at the end of the day is that this is not what the Pope was saying. The liberals can say until they are blue in the face that the pro lifers should shut up and the Pope says so too, but that isn’t the case.

You would have thought that yesterday was the greatest day since the Resurrection for the liberals, but already today, we have Pope Francis condemning abortion and the interviewer saying that of course Francis upholds the Church’s teaching on abortion. Liberals will always dissent. Did this give them some seeming ammo? Yea, it did. But if they want to dig further, they will realize they aren’t getting some progressive hero, they are getting a man who believes in the dignity of all human life. Francis isn’t Benedict, and some of us right wingers will have to get used to that, but Francis is our Pope, and as the Jesuit who gave the interview said today, conservative and progressive are not the paradigms in which Francis views the Church. Jesus has taken us this far with the Church, and he will not fail us now.

Awesome post, especially from how you started. We all have room to grow and although I would not bet money that you will ever be as comfortable with Pope Francis as you were with Pope Benedict, it seem you are trying to be patient and open minded, which I think is what Pope Francis is asking of us is asking. Keep up your good fight. I wish you all the best!

 

[einna]

Exactly Fevronia. I’d like to ask some of the posters here, can you honestly say that in the post Vatican II world, homilies and preaching have almost been exclusively about wishy washy feelings and emotions?

No, as I said before we were always reminded we were all sinners, we just didn’t hear condemnation, right or wrong. Our priest included themselves as a part of the sinners, which helped, but it made us no less sinners.I think any homily could start with the words “we are sinners” and this is what we must do to repent.