Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[lvcabbie]

The Pope’s Radical Whisper

by Frank BRUNI, Published: September 21, 2013

IT’S about time. The leader of the Roman Catholic Church has surveyed the haughty scolds in its ranks, noted their fixation on matters of sexual morality above all others and said enough is enough. I’m not being cheeky with this one-word response. Hallelujah.

Read the full piece @ nytimes.com/2013/09/22/opinion/sunday/bruni-the-popes-radical-whisper.html

 

[99th_Monkey]

So you’re fine with calumny by the NYT (or by Catholics) against previous Popes who have accused themselves of failings as well?

I see. And no previous Popes have ever done similarly. Right. Got it.

You are quick to take offense where none is intended.

 

[zab]

So you’re fine with calumny by the NYT (or by Catholics) against previous Popes who have accused themselves of failings as well?

I see. And no previous Popes have ever done similarly. Right. Got it.

Why must a favorable comment toward Pope Francis be taken as an insult toward previous popes?

 

[gracepoole]

I think that this is, potentially, so much more damaging than just saying the church is outdated all the time. What will the media say when (maybe I should say “if”) a few years down the line nothing has changed?

The dogma won’t change but our approach to sharing it can.

 

[99th_Monkey]

sorry wrong sin here is a link
google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEkQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dummies.com%2Fhow-to%2Fcontent%2Fcatholicism-excommunication-and-other-penalties.html&ei=kiE_UsOXOov14QSHzYCoDA&usg=AFQjCNFUSFTnqh23mizaqTz7SbN0l-Fwsw&sig2=GzOaD_G5qXghGQVlJy25Rw
Some excommunications, however, are so serious that only the pope or his delegate can remove the penalty. For example, if someone desecrates (shows irreverence to) the Holy Eucharist, only the pope can remove that excommunication. Likewise, if a priest attempts to absolve someone guilty of breaking the Sixth or Ninth Commandment with whom he himself participated in that sexual sin, his excommunication is automatic and reserved to Rome. So, too, a bishop who ordains a priest to the order of bishop without prior orders from the pope is automatically excommunicated, and only the pope can remove that excommunication, which applies equally to the ordaining bishop and the bishop being ordained.

You should have read a little farther:
The local bishop has the authority to remove most excommunications, B]but many bishops delegate this power to all their parish priests when it involves a penitent confessing the mortal sin of abortion. This way, the person going to confession can simultaneously have the sin /B]absolved and the excommunication lifted. This is to make it easier for people to go to confession and reconcile themselves with God and the Church, especially after a very emotional, personal, and serious matter, such as abortion.

 

[saveusfromhell]

The dogma won’t change but our approach to sharing it can.

so those priests that haven’t had a sermon on the wrongs of homosexuality abortion or contraception in the last 30 years should start giving sermons on it that it leads to hell and those that do it every week should cut back to talking more on the mercy of God

 

[saveusfromhell]

yes anyone involved in an abortion. unless then bishop has already given the priests that ability.

so what is different to what I posted

 

[Mark121359]

So you’re fine with calumny by the NYT (or by Catholics) against previous Popes who have accused themselves of failings as well?

I see. And no previous Popes have ever done similarly. Right. Got it.

You are quick to take offense where none is intended.

Why must a favorable comment toward Pope Francis be taken as an insult toward previous popes?

Go back and re-read the NYT article. And then think about what Elizabeth502 is saying…and if all else fails, go look up the meaning of calumny!

Peace, Mark

 

[Elizabeth502]

You are quick to take offense where none is intended.

Intentions are not readable. Words are. The offense is not toward me, it’s toward the successors of Peter, and I do not appreciate the divisive politics evident regarding this topic. And I certainly would not expect faithful Catholics to join in, or even approve of, the obvious divisiveness of the secular media which pits one Pope artificially against another. It violates charity and truth, both.

 

[bellasbane]

Go back and re-read the NYT article. And then think about what Elizabeth502 is saying…and if all else fails, go look up the meaning of calumny!

Peace, Mark

I read the NYT article and it seemed spot on to me. What part did you find problematic?

In her original post, Elizabeth502 calls the celebration among the masses over a change in emphasis from “doctrine” to “mercy” a strawman. However, her lament itself is a strawman, because the actual switch in emphasis being celebrated is from “moral teaching” to “doctrine” (i.e., Mercy) and many people are legitimately happy to see it happen.

As for those who say bad things about the Popes since Pius XII - they don’t write for the NYT.

 

[Mark121359]

Intentions are not readable. Words are. The offense is not toward me, it’s toward the successors of Peter, and I do not appreciate the divisive politics evident regarding this topic. And I certainly would not expect faithful Catholics to join in, or even approve of, the obvious divisiveness of the secular media which pits one Pope artificially against another. It violates charity and truth, both.

Amen!

Peace, Mark

 

[anthony022071]

Not to mention, the concept that supposedly Catholicism and Catholics have some (imagined) “emphasis” on doctrine “versus” mercy is perhaps the biggest straw man ever erected in the history of false human claims, a claim perpetrated and (falsely) “celebrated” by many posters here.

It seems that you are the one setting up a straw man argument. No devout Catholic says that Catholicism emphasizes doctrine over mercy. Doctrine means “teaching”. Catholic doctrine is the truth,and nothing is more important than truth. Among the doctrines of the Church is that God has mercy on repentant sinners and we must be merciful also. Many of the Catholics who are strong on moral doctrine are also strong on spreading the teaching and devotion of Divine Mercy. This truth of God’s mercy cannot be emphasized at the expense of other truths such as that Jesus is our Savior,or his sacrifice on the cross,or the reality and deadliness of sin,or the need for repentance,or the final judgement. People who do not stress moral doctrine do not lead others to repentance and God’s mercy. They mistake human acceptance for God’s mercy,and show a lack of concern about moral truth and evil and dangers to the soul.

The Church as a hospital, field or otherwise, is not a new metaphor recently invented, nor has it ever been obscured. It is rather ancient, as ancient as Jesus’ earthly ministry.

The Church is like a hospital in that it heals souls by leading them to repentance and obedience. But sinners cannot be led to repentance and obedience unless doctrine is emphasized.

I wonder why some people seem to need the current Pope to say what previous Popes have said for millenia, despite such previous Popes having been maligned and their words & actions misrepresented in the current discussions on the internet.

The popes always have a responsibility to teach authentic Catholic doctrine.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Among the doctrines of the Church is that God has mercy on repentant sinners and we must be merciful also. Many of the Catholics who are strong on moral doctrine are also strong on spreading the teaching and devotion of Divine Mercy.

The Church is like a hospital in that it heals souls by leading them to repentance and obedience. But sinners cannot be led to repentance and obedience unless doctrine is emphasized.

The popes always have a responsibility to teach authentic Catholic doctrine.

Friend, I have no disagreement with you. The disagreement is with the interview-spinners, manifest especially on the previous thread of the same topic

Perhaps my thoughts are clearer here:

Elizabeth502:

You know, critical reading is one of my strengths, and I have yet to see one new Catholic teaching in the interview except by those who wish to read into the interview things which were not said, and then spin the interview to create new “doctrine,” which many (Catholics and non-Catholics) have done. But then, not everyone is familiar with the full body of Catholic teaching, and that is not always their fault.

Giant straw men have been erected and then burned, in an imaginary bonfire.

 

[99th_Monkey]

So you’re fine with calumny by the NYT (or by Catholics) against previous Popes who have accused themselves of failings as well?

I see. And no previous Popes have ever done similarly. Right. Got it.

Are we talking about the same article from which I quoted? Where is the calumny?

 

[anthony022071]

Friend, I have no disagreement with you. The disagreement is with the interview-spinners, manifest especially on the previous thread of the same topic

Perhaps my thoughts are clearer here:

Perhaps I misinterpreted your words. What did you mean when you mentioned the concept that Catholicism or Catholics emphasize doctrine versus mercy,and that some posters here celebrate that idea? Were you only referring to the fact that many people such as those who are not Catholic,or liberals and progressives,have that mistaken idea,or were you suggesting also that orthodox Catholics believe that doctrine should be emphasized over mercy?

 

[anthony022071]

I read the NYT article and it seemed spot on to me. What part did you find problematic?

In her original post, Elizabeth502 calls the celebration among the masses over a change in emphasis from “doctrine” to “mercy” a strawman. However, her lament itself is a strawman, because the actual switch in emphasis being celebrated is from “moral teaching” to “doctrine” (i.e., Mercy) and many people are legitimately happy to see it happen.

As for those who say bad things about the Popes since Pius XII - they don’t write for the NYT.

It doesn’t make sense to say that moral teaching and doctrine are different things,or that mercy is not a moral teaching.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

img689.imageshack.us/img689/9997/s8fp.jpg

 

[bellasbane]

It doesn’t make sense to say that moral teaching and doctrine are different things,or that mercy is not a moral teaching.

The concept of mercy as applied to God in a theological sense is an example of Church doctrine that is different from the moral teaching that as Christians we should be merciful in our interactions with others. They are not the same thing at all. Furthermore, the second is derived from the first and only makes sense in light of the Gospel message.

This is what Pope Francis means when he says, “The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent.” – Primacy belongs to theological doctrines, such as “God is merciful”, rather than the moral teachings that are derived from them.

“The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you.”

Obsessing over moral teaching and forgetting to preach the Gospel gets things backwards. Pope Francis sees this as counter-productive. What I hear him saying is that we must first change hearts and minds by proclaiming the Gospel and THEN moral behavior will follow.

Of course, this is what liberal-minded Catholics have been saying all along.

 

[opus101]

The press is obviously misinterpreting Pope Francis in regard to the practice of homosexuality and same-sex marriage.

Before becoming Pope, he suspended an Argentinian priest who was recently defrocked:

vanguardngr.com/2013/04/argentine-priest-defrocked-for-backing-gay-marriage/

This (and the Pope’s comments about the demonic elements of this issue) is the light in which we should read his words.

The voracious activist homosexual lobby machine knows well what his true beliefs are. The reason why they have not come up against him as strongly, loudly and visibly as would be expected is because they are using another tactic. They are representing him as supporting them, as a Pope who is going to (as if it were possible) change doctrine on the matter.

The tactic is to cause Catholics to lose faith and to cause everyone else to be misinformed.

They have had some (temporary) success.

Prayer.

 

[gracepoole]

The concept of mercy as applied to God in a theological sense is an example of Church doctrine that is different from the moral teaching that as Christians we should be merciful in our interactions with others. They are not the same thing at all. Furthermore, the second is derived from the first and only makes sense in light of the Gospel message.

This is what Pope Francis means when he says, “The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent.” – Primacy belongs to theological doctrines, such as “God is merciful”, rather than the moral teachings that are derived from them.

“The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you.”

Obsessing over moral teaching and forgetting to preach the Gospel gets things backwards. Pope Francis sees this as counter-productive. What I hear him saying is that we must first change hearts and minds by proclaiming the Gospel and THEN moral behavior will follow.

Of course, this is what liberal-minded Catholics have been saying all along.

and