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Robert_Bay
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A continuation of this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=824156
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Tantum_ergo
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This article showed up (late as usual) in the local paper this weekend.
I used to think that much of the media (not all the media of course) twisting regarding how ‘mean’ and ‘hidebound’ and ‘rules oriented’ Pope John Paul 2 and Pope Benedict were was the worst reporting ever.
I’ve changed my mind. The current twisting regarding how ‘kind’ and ‘non judgmental’ and ‘progressive’ Pope Francis (supposedly) is and how he is REJECTING the ‘old ways’. . .THAT is the worst reporting ever.
At least in the old bad reporting, one knew that the ad hominem attacks were made in order to attack the Church’s teaching by presenting its leaders as mean, stern, and rigid. One could look beyond and see that the teaching itself wasn’t being attacked; it was the leaders supposed ‘misinterpreting’. . .and one could then gain a true understanding.
In this new bad reporting, instead of attacking the man who is Pope, they are praising him and they are beginning to directly attack the ‘supposed teaching’. This is much harder for many (even Catholics) to see, because it looks as though many media are actually gaining an appreciation for the Pope and the Church.
They aren’t, though. What they are attempting to do is erect a false pope in THEIR image, and present his teachings as the ‘real gospel’.
We knew it was coming. We were warned. But as we are seeing, even some of the faithful are being swayed into thinking Pope Francis is 'making changes on Catholic teaching", although the supposed ‘plain, caring, progressive Pope" is actually not doing anything HIMSELF contrary to Church teaching. Unfortunately, much of the media is trying to present Francis’ ‘style’ as being more ‘true’ than that of John Paul 2 and Benedict, and are trying to present appearance of good as good itself.
As we should know, appearances don’t necessarily reveal the truth of a person or a teaching. If it ‘appears’ that a person is humble (because he wears ‘plain clothing’ and drives an old car, when he COULD wear ‘fancier clothes’ or drive a ‘fancier car’), the person might indeed be humble, OR he might not. The appearance doesn’t necessarily indicate the HEART of the person.
Likewise, the APPEARANCE that Francis is ‘kinder’ and ‘non judgmental’ is being presented as the actual TEACHING of the Church --IOW, it is being presented to the world that the Catholic Church, as led by the ‘good Francis’, is not the ‘old’ Catholic Church of the ornate, Latin-loving, gold vestment wearing, be aware of sins’, but a supposed new “plain, 21st century, humble, 'don’t call ANYTHING sinful and embrace every action because there is no real sin except not being ‘nice’” Catholic Church. The gospel of this church is a secular one whereby whatever ‘the world’ deems acceptable is accepted, and whatever ‘the world’ deems is not ‘nice’ is not acceptable.
Calling homosexual ACTIONS (not the person) sinful? That’s not NICE. Pope Francis doesn’t do it, therefore the Catholic Church has CHANGED and become ‘one of us’, a nice Church in the world’s own image, ready to proclaim as good what the world says is good, and to ignore as "not our business’ anything that the world doesn’t want addressed.
Don’t fall for it. Pope Francis is NOT leading the Church astray, not teaching wrong, and not about to become just another Dalai Lama 'nice guy giving us nice sayings on stuff that was ‘formerly known as religion’.
I used to think that much of the media (not all the media of course) twisting regarding how ‘mean’ and ‘hidebound’ and ‘rules oriented’ Pope John Paul 2 and Pope Benedict were was the worst reporting ever.
I’ve changed my mind. The current twisting regarding how ‘kind’ and ‘non judgmental’ and ‘progressive’ Pope Francis (supposedly) is and how he is REJECTING the ‘old ways’. . .THAT is the worst reporting ever.
At least in the old bad reporting, one knew that the ad hominem attacks were made in order to attack the Church’s teaching by presenting its leaders as mean, stern, and rigid. One could look beyond and see that the teaching itself wasn’t being attacked; it was the leaders supposed ‘misinterpreting’. . .and one could then gain a true understanding.
In this new bad reporting, instead of attacking the man who is Pope, they are praising him and they are beginning to directly attack the ‘supposed teaching’. This is much harder for many (even Catholics) to see, because it looks as though many media are actually gaining an appreciation for the Pope and the Church.
They aren’t, though. What they are attempting to do is erect a false pope in THEIR image, and present his teachings as the ‘real gospel’.
We knew it was coming. We were warned. But as we are seeing, even some of the faithful are being swayed into thinking Pope Francis is 'making changes on Catholic teaching", although the supposed ‘plain, caring, progressive Pope" is actually not doing anything HIMSELF contrary to Church teaching. Unfortunately, much of the media is trying to present Francis’ ‘style’ as being more ‘true’ than that of John Paul 2 and Benedict, and are trying to present appearance of good as good itself.
As we should know, appearances don’t necessarily reveal the truth of a person or a teaching. If it ‘appears’ that a person is humble (because he wears ‘plain clothing’ and drives an old car, when he COULD wear ‘fancier clothes’ or drive a ‘fancier car’), the person might indeed be humble, OR he might not. The appearance doesn’t necessarily indicate the HEART of the person.
Likewise, the APPEARANCE that Francis is ‘kinder’ and ‘non judgmental’ is being presented as the actual TEACHING of the Church --IOW, it is being presented to the world that the Catholic Church, as led by the ‘good Francis’, is not the ‘old’ Catholic Church of the ornate, Latin-loving, gold vestment wearing, be aware of sins’, but a supposed new “plain, 21st century, humble, 'don’t call ANYTHING sinful and embrace every action because there is no real sin except not being ‘nice’” Catholic Church. The gospel of this church is a secular one whereby whatever ‘the world’ deems acceptable is accepted, and whatever ‘the world’ deems is not ‘nice’ is not acceptable.
Calling homosexual ACTIONS (not the person) sinful? That’s not NICE. Pope Francis doesn’t do it, therefore the Catholic Church has CHANGED and become ‘one of us’, a nice Church in the world’s own image, ready to proclaim as good what the world says is good, and to ignore as "not our business’ anything that the world doesn’t want addressed.
Don’t fall for it. Pope Francis is NOT leading the Church astray, not teaching wrong, and not about to become just another Dalai Lama 'nice guy giving us nice sayings on stuff that was ‘formerly known as religion’.
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Phemie
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You do know that a woman who has an abortion is automatically excommunicated, don’t you? And that means she’s unable to receive ANY sacrament. If she repents and wants to confess, it may be that she has to confess to the Bishop because he may not have given his priests the faculty to lift this excommunication.
ewtn.com/expert/answers/abortio2.htm
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saveusfromhell
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and? i’m not really sure where your going with this. are you saying the pope should/could/will change this.
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Phemie
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No, I was responding to PTL who seemed not to know that excommunication occurs and what it can mean in practical terms. It’s not always just a matter of going to the parish church on Saturday afternoon for regular confessions.
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captainmike
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Nice op-ed piece on the Pope in today’s NYT:
nytimes.com/2013/09/22/opinion/sunday/bruni-the-popes-radical-whisper.html?_r=0
nytimes.com/2013/09/22/opinion/sunday/bruni-the-popes-radical-whisper.html?_r=0
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99th_Monkey
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So if a woman goes into a confessional, is truly repentant, and asks for absolution, the priest needs to say “I’ll get back to you.”?
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saveusfromhell
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okay I understand
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Elizabeth502
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And not just them. Many others.
Not to mention, the concept that supposedly Catholicism and Catholics have some (imagined) “emphasis” on doctrine “versus” mercy is perhaps the biggest straw man ever erected in the history of false human claims, a claim perpetrated and (falsely) “celebrated” by many posters here.
The Church as a hospital, field or otherwise, is not a new metaphor recently invented, nor has it ever been obscured. It is rather ancient, as ancient as Jesus’ earthly ministry. I wonder why some people seem to need the current Pope to say what previous Popes have said for millenia, despite such previous Popes having been maligned and their words & actions misrepresented in the current discussions on the internet.
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Phemie
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He does if his bishop didn’t give him the faculty to lift this excommunication.
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saveusfromhell
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yes anyone involved in an abortion. unless then bishop has already given the priests that ability.
if a priest breaks the seal of confession I think he may need to go to the pope for absolution. I forget exactly but its not down to the local confession anyway
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99th_Monkey
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Beautiful:
'It was the sweetness in his timbre, the meekness of his posture. It was the revelation that a man can wear the loftiest of miters without having his head swell to fit it, and can hold an office to which the term “infallible” is often attached without forgetting his failings. In the interview, Francis called himself naïve, worried that he’d been rash in the past and made clear that the flock harbored as much wisdom as the shepherds. Instead of commanding people to follow him, he invited them to join him. And did so gently, in what felt like a whisper."
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99th_Monkey
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Do you have anything to back up your statement?
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saveusfromhell
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I’ll have to go and find it, its a while since I read it.
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zab
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Just because some of us are more accepting of Pope Francis’ comments than others does not mean that we “need” to hear about love and mercy from him more than we did from our previous beloved popes. We are just not willing to let some throw our Holy Father under the bus because of how others are manipulating his words.And not just them. Many others.
Not to mention, the concept that supposedly Catholicism and Catholics have some (imagined) “emphasis” on doctrine “versus” mercy is perhaps the biggest straw man ever erected in the history of false human claims, a claim perpetrated and (falsely) “celebrated” by many posters here.
The Church as a hospital, field or otherwise, is not a new metaphor recently invented, nor has it ever been obscured. It is rather ancient, as ancient as Jesus’ earthly ministry. I wonder why some people seem to need the current Pope to say what previous Popes have said for millenia, despite such previous Popes having been maligned and their words & actions misrepresented in the current discussions on the internet.
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saveusfromhell
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sorry wrong sin here is a link
google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEkQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dummies.com%2Fhow-to%2Fcontent%2Fcatholicism-excommunication-and-other-penalties.html&ei=kiE_UsOXOov14QSHzYCoDA&usg=AFQjCNFUSFTnqh23mizaqTz7SbN0l-Fwsw&sig2=GzOaD_G5qXghGQVlJy25Rw
Some excommunications, however, are so serious that only the pope or his delegate can remove the penalty. For example, if someone desecrates (shows irreverence to) the Holy Eucharist, only the pope can remove that excommunication. Likewise, if a priest attempts to absolve someone guilty of breaking the Sixth or Ninth Commandment with whom he himself participated in that sexual sin, his excommunication is automatic and reserved to Rome. So, too, a bishop who ordains a priest to the order of bishop without prior orders from the pope is automatically excommunicated, and only the pope can remove that excommunication, which applies equally to the ordaining bishop and the bishop being ordained.
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Elizabeth502
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So you’re fine with calumny by the NYT (or by Catholics) against previous Popes who have accused themselves of failings as well?
I see. And no previous Popes have ever done similarly. Right. Got it.
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saveusfromhell
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actually after reading further it says
•Sacramental absolution of an accomplice in sin against the Sixth and Ninth Commandments
so yes a pope has to give absolution
•Sacramental absolution of an accomplice in sin against the Sixth and Ninth Commandments
so yes a pope has to give absolution
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anthonymarie
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I think that this is, potentially, so much more damaging than just saying the church is outdated all the time. What will the media say when (maybe I should say “if”) a few years down the line nothing has changed?
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