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seekerz
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Exactly what I said: how could the words of the Pope - sound teaching based on the Gospel itself - lead people truly wishing to convert to the Catholic faith, AWAY from that desire?
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seekerz
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That is the crux of the matter with regard to the politics of abortion and gay marriage. IMO, that is exactly the reason Jesus went about teaching, healing, sharing meals and attending weddings. If laws change morality, Jesus could have come to earth as a Temple priest, and nailed some new laws to the doorposts to replace the old ones before proceeding to Calvary, no need to stop along the highways and the byways…
Morality is a reflection of the nature of our relationships: with each other and with God.
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SaintAugustine
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So, you oppose Church teaching when it comes to legislation? I can’t do that, as I do my best to live by Church teaching.
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seekerz
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What are you talking about? Where did I oppose Church teaching?
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SaintAugustine
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The Church teaches that our legislation should reflect morality and regularly says Catholics should support anti-abortion, traditional marriage, and other moral legislation. You and the poster you quoted seem to believe you “can’t legislate morality.” Are you now saying we can and should legislate morality?
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kmcarl56
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I believe God/Jesus warned us that there would be false prophets and heretics who would come and try to impart false teachings on people, including Christians. When we hear and read about such things, we must be even more determined to spread the Truth of God’s Word.
There are usually sections of papers that allow for viewer’s editorials. Write them!
There are organizations within the Catholic Church whose purpose is to thwart such false teachings. Support their efforts.
Most of all, defend the Word of God with swords in your hands. Fight the Good Fight! We will win in the end, as God has told us so. Praise be to God in His endless love, mercy, and grace.
There are usually sections of papers that allow for viewer’s editorials. Write them!
There are organizations within the Catholic Church whose purpose is to thwart such false teachings. Support their efforts.
Most of all, defend the Word of God with swords in your hands. Fight the Good Fight! We will win in the end, as God has told us so. Praise be to God in His endless love, mercy, and grace.
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zab
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I feel like I’m defending both sides at times. I just don’t like to see other posters being attacked because of what some “seem” to think they understand or do not understand. Some traditional Catholics, and here I go, too, “seem” to understand that the Holy Father has not said or done anything contrary to Church Teaching, but they “seem” to be more concerned with what others, particularly those who have strayed, will think about his remarks. Pope Francis has his own mission given to him by God. He has his own personality, his own spirituality and his own style. Just because he is different and wants to go about things in a different way does not make him less faithful. It should be no surprise to faithful Catholics how the media put a spin or distorts the truth. I think we should be more trusting of the guidance of our Holy Father and worry less about how others are taking his remarks.
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seekerz
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Read what Jesus and St Paul had to say about the OT law. Of course laws are needed to keep society from falling into disorder, but they cannot and should not be the primary means by which we seek to promote our faith. That is exactly what the Pope seemed to be saying.
There is much more to Christian responsibility to society than making sure some law or the other is passed. Our PRIMARY responsibility is to live the Gospel to the fullest extent possible, teaching by word and example. Supporting legislation that promotes morality IS a part - but only one part - of that. If we are successful in living the full Gospel, and people are converted, they will NOT abort the unborn even if someone offered them money to do it!
OTOH, if we focus on individual laws at the expense of the above, even with a perfectly tailored and implemented law, we would only get: no abortion or no gay marriage, which does not = comprehensive morality by any definition I know.
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SaintAugustine
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In other words, both. That, I can agree with. Bottom line, we do and should legislate morality. In fact, our laws are generally based on morality and ethics. Thank you for agreeing with me and seeing that we should continue to fight for anti-abortion, traditional marriage, etc. laws.
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seekerz
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I do not agree with you on that point at all. We can legislate based on moral values (i.e. legislate morally) but we cannot legislate morality. There aren’t enough judges in the world for all the laws we would need, or all the law enforcement officers, lawyers, prisons…and even then we could only enforce what we can see. Morality is a matter of the inner man where God alone can see all.In other words, both. That, I can agree with. Bottom line, we do and should legislate morality. In fact, our laws are generally based on morality and ethics. Thank you for agreeing with me and seeing that we should continue to fight for anti-abortion, traditional marriage, etc. laws.
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SaintAugustine
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So, you don’t believe we should pass anti-abortion, traditional marriage, et al laws?
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Brendan
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I understand that we cannot make someone be moral, but that has never been the purpose of civil law in the Catholic understanding.
Look at Romans 13. St. Paul notes that those who do evil should be in fear of the civil authorities, who have the right to punish those who do evil.
But the definition of good and evil were given not to the State, but to the Church.
According to St. Paul then, those who DO conduct abortions, or engage in homosexual acts, are in a condition that IS punishable by the State.
In doing so, the State is not attempting to regulate the inner heart of the person, but we can all agree that evil external behaviors can, and should be regulated by the State.
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seekerz
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Agreed 100%.
My original statement was in agreement with someone who stated that we can’t legislate morality. I took the time to highlight that statement because it is my opinion that the focus on legislation is diminishing the focus on evangelism. Several decades in health care is my basis for this opinion. The only time I become aware of anyone (in a work capacity) who seeks to do something about abortion, is when legislation is being debated. I have never had the experience of anyone (and there have been some who jumped to conclusions on my stance just by cursory knowledge of me) inviting me to some sort of outreach/group…any initiative whatsoever outside of what I become aware of through my parish Church. So what if I was not Catholic or not a churchgoer? Would my only invitation to ‘respect life’ be a law imposed upon me? From where I sit, that’s not good enough.
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seekerz
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Did I say that? I’m simply saying that if that’s the main level on which we engage, it won’t do any good. Do we forget that these laws used to exist in much of the world BEFORE they were struck off the books or became obsolete through disuse?So, you don’t believe we should pass anti-abortion, traditional marriage, et al laws?
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SaintAugustine
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I thought we agreed that both legislation and changing of hearts are necessary. We don’t agree? You aren’t very clear in what you are saying.
Do you or don’t you believe that we should pass legislation based on Church teaching?
Do you believe that laws have no effect on morality?
Please don’t answer with “did I say that?” because these are questions…I’ve never stated that morality only comes from laws, but I do believe that laws are necessary. I see nothing in Church teaching that opposes such a viewpoint. In fact, I regularly see the Magisterium instructing us to pass moral legislation.
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seekerz
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To be perfectly clear, as a general principle, I believe that we should pass moral laws. However, I also believe that these laws are very limited in what they can achieve by themselves. Also, I believe that pushing for certain types of laws can result in more harm than good. Just because a law’s intent is to curb abortion, does not automatically make it a good law (here I specifically reference the personhood laws that I’m familiar with). In a society which has come as far down the road as we have with regard to attitudes to sex and reproduction, I believe that the more radical the law, the more divisive and counterproductive the result. I’m all for outlawing abortion on demand, but combining that with debates over whether contraceptive use constitutes abortion, is decidedly counterproductive in my opinion. Even the good Lord took the Israelites along a gradual path of enlightenment (for example, tolerating divorce in the Mosaic Law even though He hates divorce). Rome was not built in a day, but when I listen to the abortion debate sometimes I get the distinct impression that some think it could have been.
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SaintAugustine
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So, similar to conservatives who believe that certain welfare programs, tax programs, etc. are more divisive and damaging to society, despite calls from the Bishops to support them?
After a certain point, we have to be careful that we don’t use a false understanding of “primacy of conscience” to allow us free rein to do whatever we want and call it moral, IMO.
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josethomas
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I had also posted a reply expressing my difference as regards the indifference in moral matters. Now I think since teaching of the church as expressed in the official communications by the Popes hitherto, and since the present Pope admits that he is a son of the church there is no reason to hold that Pope is deviating from the church position. What the Pope expressed may be that inspite of the short comings the sinner who is gay or abortionist is still loved by God, but once such people recognises God’s love and understand the Biblical teaching, they will convert and become true sons and daughters of the church, loyal to church stand, and for the time being since to sin is human the Pope does not judge the sinners alone, as every body stands in need of pardon and help from God.
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SaintAugustine
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That’s correct. We are all children of God. We are all sinners who fall short. God still loves us, just as a father loves his children, even if they have rejected the family and live a scandalous life. You want them to return, as the Prodigal Son did, and will rejoice upon their return, as his father did.
While you still love them, you also will still lovingly call them home rather than lying to them about their scandal and confirming their sin.
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