Pope calls for action on climate change

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I think that 99.9999% (approximately) of the Catholics on this forum agree with the bolded point. The problem that occurs is when a leap of faith is added to the issue. Just because we are called to protect our environment, it doesn’t mean that, as Catholics, we must support every environmental action made by governmental bodies.

If the effects of man on climate change are overstated, and unnecessary draconian environmental regulations ensue which wreak havoc on the economy and result in financial strife for the poor; then we take a good thing (i.e. care for the environment) and turn it into a bad thing (i.e. increased poverty). Some Catholics, well intentioned though they may be, make this mistake. It is what the Holy Father warns about when he talks about this:
ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=99445

If a Catholic is in favor of taking care of the environment, they can still be opposed to a particular piece of legislation that they deem harmful to humanity. It’s a fine balance. We can’t let Catholics off the hook who want to use this as a loophole to prevent environmental action, but we should be careful to chastise. Remember, many environmentalists are also pushing zero population growth and other such nonsense.

For me, I’m in favor of sensible regulation on businesses and encouraging individual environmental actions.
I understand what you are saying and I also understand what the Holy Father is saying in the quote that you posted. It all sounds sensible to me.

I’m in a little different position than you are. You have a right to opinions and feelings. I do not. Our rule is very clear, that we can only opine and have feelings on those subjects that are allowed to us either by the pope, local bishop or our superior. Outside of those things on which I have a right to an opinion or feelings, I must step back, decline comment, and obey under penalty of grave sin. There are some points on which we must remain totally neutral and obey by submitting. This is our way to holiness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I understand what you are saying and I also understand what the Holy Father is saying in the quote that you posted. It all sounds sensible to me.

I’m in a little different position than you are. You have a right to opinions and feelings. I do not. Our rule is very clear, that we can only opine and have feelings on those subjects that are allowed to us either by the pope, local bishop or our superior. Outside of those things on which I have a right to an opinion or feelings, I must step back, decline comment, and obey under penalty of grave sin. There are some points on which we must remain totally neutral and obey by submitting. This is our way to holiness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Hmm…but did the Holy Father say you must support a particular piece of legislation or global agreement? I’m pretty certain you are still allowed to have opinions, because the Church rarely gives absolutes in these matters. To support the environment does not mean to support x legislation.
 
Hmm…but did the Holy Father say you must support a particular piece of legislation or global agreement? I’m pretty certain you are still allowed to have opinions, because the Church rarely gives absolutes in these matters. To support the environment does not mean to support x legislation.
Our rule is very clear on this matter. When the opnion of your superior is different from your own, you must submit without comment, without murmurring, without contradicting, and without quarrel. St. Francis said that this sacrifice is more pleasing to God and man than being right.

In our constitutions there is a passage that says that we may never, under penalty of mortal sin, contradict the pope, a bishop, our superior, or our brothers when they speak with one voice.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Our rule is very clear on this matter. When the opnion of your superior is different from your own, you must submit without comment, without murmurring, without contradicting, and without quarrel. St. Francis said that this sacrifice is more pleasing to God and man than being right.

In our constitutions there is a passage that says that we may never, under penalty of mortal sin, contradict the pope, a bishop, our superior, or our brothers when they speak with one voice.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I understand that, brother. What I mean is, for example, I don’t think that I have contradicted the Pope in my posts (I even quoted him). I support the environment and efforts (both locally and globally) to limit damage to the environment. But, those are vague pronouncements. Are you saying, for example, that you receive very direct guidelines - “you must support any agreement that comes out of Copenhagen?”
 
I understand that, brother. What I mean is, for example, I don’t think that I have contradicted the Pope in my posts (I even quoted him). I support the environment and efforts (both locally and globally) to limit damage to the environment. But, those are vague pronouncements. Are you saying, for example, that you receive very direct guidelines - “you must support any agreement that comes out of Copenhagen?”
Mendicant Orders of men follow the monastic tradition in matters of obedience. The guidelines are pretty specific. A monk and a friar are people whose opinions must always coincide with those in authority, unless you are asked for an opposing view.

I know that you did not oppose the Holy Father. That’s why I said that your post was sensible. I was referring to me. Let’s use Copenhagen. If the Holy Father endorses Copenhagen (THAT’S AN IF), we may not say anything to the contrary. It’s not a question about Copenhagen. Benedict, Augustine, Basil, Albert and Francis had no way of knowing anything about Copenhagen or whatever is happening in the world today. But they were very wise men. What they taught and demanded of their sons was absolute fidelity to those in authority.

There was a reason for this. It is only through total submission of one’s self that one becomes truly poor. Only when one becomes poor does one come close to being like Christ who accepted the will of his Father without murmuring. Our silence is not an indifference, but love. It can also be penance. There are times when we have feelings and opinions that differ from those of a pope, bishop or superior. But the act of recognizing them and remaining silent requires great discipline.

We live in a society where men feel that their opinions must be heard. At times we even find people in the Church who believe that the Church only has authority to govern in matters of faith and morals, which is not true. According to Apostolic tradition, the Church also has temporal authority over the faithful. She has the right to govern on matters concerning the world and to dictate to the faithful what they must do or not do.

Monks and friars try to model for the imitation of the laity what is called a loving silence. We speak when we are given permission to speak, on the things that we are allowed to speak, and only to support and uphold what eclesial authority teaches, demands, decrees, or forbids. It’s a beautiful way of living, because you surrender your mind, will and thought to the Lord, through your order and the Church.

In a case such as this. If the Holy Father calls for action on climate change, we support his call. Those monks and friars who may disagree with him, have a moral duty to change their mind, not his. This is interesting. They have a moral duty to change their thinking, not because they may be wrong, but because they recognize the temporal authority of the Pope and bishops.

This does not happen in a vacuum. That’s what community life is for. You share your misgivings with your brothers and your brothers are there to help you make the ultimate sacrifice of self, the renunciation of your point of view for the sake of love.

I truly believe that this kind of renunciation is far more difficult, at least for me, than giving up material things, sex, power, money and chocalate. But, because it requires so much love and trust, it becomes a beautiful act of detachment that one unites to Christ’s detachment on the cross.

The point is that the Holy Father has said what he wants to see happen. As a friar, my role is to show the laity how to conform to Peter’s wishes. Now, you must remember, you never have to conform in matters of sin. If you are asked to commit a sin, to conform is not love.

I often find myself in situations where the pope or the local bishop will say something and people will share their disagreement with me and they get frustrated because I always say the same thing. “Once authority has spoken, I have no opinion on the matter other than that which authority has stated.” People always go, “But Brother, what do you think?” I’m always forced to tell them, “A brother is not a person who thinks, wishes, has opinions, likes or dislikes that are different from those of the people who are above him in rank and dignity.” Yes, we all have the dignity of the children of God. But we do not all have the dignity of authority. That’s different. Catholicism is not a democracy. Monks and friars have a mandate from their founders to show the laity how to do this. It’s not just a matter of applying the rule of submission to ourselves. That would not be charity. We do not live for us. We live for the Church. We show the Church how to live the Gospel message. I beleive that Mother Teresa said it best when she told her sisters that they would be judged on their fidelity, not their accomplishments. Fidelity is the key word. A monk and a friar are to be as faithful to authority as Christ is to the Church. Our fidelity becomes our sermon.

I’m not sure if I’m being clear or making it more confusing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Just because we are called to protect our environment, it doesn’t mean that, as Catholics, we must support every environmental action made by governmental bodies.

If the effects of man on climate change are overstated, and unnecessary draconian environmental regulations ensue which wreak havoc on the economy and result in financial strife for the poor; then we take a good thing (i.e. care for the environment) and turn it into a bad thing (i.e. increased poverty).

If a Catholic is in favor of taking care of the environment, they can still be opposed to a particular piece of legislation that they deem harmful to humanity. It’s a fine balance. We can’t let Catholics off the hook who want to use this as a loophole to prevent environmental action, but we should be careful to chastise. Remember, many environmentalists are also pushing zero population growth and other such nonsense.
Wonderful post which very succinctly states truth. Thank you!

Remember too, that governments which are looking to impose more control over our world will use any issue to help achieve that end.
 
Since I’m a undergaduate major in math and a graduate major in Mystical Theology, I have no idea what you’re talking about. LOL Do candles actually give off carbon dioxide?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
All hydrocarbon combustion does. The byproducts of fire are CO2 and water vapor.
 
I’m not sure if I’m being clear or making it more confusing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
You are being clear, but I’m still confused. 😃

This is what I’m trying to understand, so I’ve cut out the rest of your post.
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JReducation:
In a case such as this. If the Holy Father calls for action on climate change, we support his call. Those monks and friars who may disagree with him, have a moral duty to change their mind, not his. This is interesting. They have a moral duty to change their thinking, not because they may be wrong, but because they recognize the temporal authority of the Pope and bishops.
Does that mean you must support *any *action on climate change? That doesn’t seem prudent, and it doesn’t seem to be what the Holy Father is saying. I could understand an obedience issue if a monk or friar opposed all action on climate change, but there are many different ways to take action. That’s why I brought up Copenhagen, for example. As a monk, you can have an opinion on the type of action that should be taken, can’t you? I hope so…
 
No JR. You need to know some basic chemistry to save the planet (or at least so that no one can pull the wool over your eyes). I don’t know the chemical formula for wax, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it is some form of hydrocarbon molecule.

There is alot of misunderstanding about what comes out of exhaust pipes. I gave this response to another poster awhile back:

Carbon monoxide (CO) is present in car exhaust because of incomplete combustion. It is present in minute amounts compared to CO2. The main products of combustion from any hydrocarbon fuel (CXHY) are CO2 and H2O (water vapor). Oxygen from the air reacts with the carbon in the fuel to form CO2. It also reacts with the hydrogen in the fuel to form water vapor H2O. For gasoline (C8H18) exhaust, CO2 is 19% by weight, H2O is 9%, and N2 is 72%. Other things are present, like CO, but they are there in very small percentages compared to the main products of combustion. Note that nitrogen is there in such a large percentage because air is 79% nitrogen. Nitrogen does react slightly with the other elements that are present during combustion but most of it doesn’t react. It just goes along for the ride. It goes into the engine and has to come out the exhaust. I discuss how to determine these percentages in an earlier post (I’m an engineer BTW.)

I gave the simple form of the chemical reaction and how to calculate these percentages in a couple posts here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5485719#post5485719
Sounds pretty horrible.

I guess, it looks like, it is just blind luck that we are not now dead from all that.

How can it be that we have survived.
 
You are being clear, but I’m still confused. 😃

This is what I’m trying to understand, so I’ve cut out the rest of your post.

Does that mean you must support *any *action on climate change? That doesn’t seem prudent, and it doesn’t seem to be what the Holy Father is saying. I could understand an obedience issue if a monk or friar opposed all action on climate change, but there are many different ways to take action. That’s why I brought up Copenhagen, for example. As a monk, you can have an opinion on the type of action that should be taken, can’t you? I hope so…
Shut down all fossil fuel engines immediately. All coal burning heating and electric generators. All oil burning anything. All petrochemical plants. There is not a moment too soon. Now. Shut off everything.
 
You are being clear, but I’m still confused. 😃

This is what I’m trying to understand, so I’ve cut out the rest of your post.

Does that mean you must support *any *action on climate change? That doesn’t seem prudent, and it doesn’t seem to be what the Holy Father is saying. I could understand an obedience issue if a monk or friar opposed all action on climate change, but there are many different ways to take action. That’s why I brought up Copenhagen, for example. As a monk, you can have an opinion on the type of action that should be taken, can’t you? I hope so…
This is important. The obedience is to the pope, not to the legislation of nations. We are bound to support whatever the pope supports.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
You are being clear, but I’m still confused. 😃

This is what I’m trying to understand, so I’ve cut out the rest of your post.

Does that mean you must support *any *action on climate change? That doesn’t seem prudent, and it doesn’t seem to be what the Holy Father is saying. I could understand an obedience issue if a monk or friar opposed all action on climate change, but there are many different ways to take action. That’s why I brought up Copenhagen, for example. As a monk, you can have an opinion on the type of action that should be taken, can’t you? I hope so…
I separated this, because it brought a smile to my face. A monk or a friar is not a person who has opinions. He is not a person who wishes and wants. These are the human traits that he is trying to leave behind. He is a man who obeys and is faithful to those in authority. His only wish, desire or want is to see men follow God’s will. His opinions should lead others to follow the will of God, to place God and the Church above himself, and to promote greater charity according to the spirit of his religious community. All these communities are rooted in the Gospel. So whether they get there by train or mule, the point is to arrive at perfect charity.

Therefore, we voluntarilly surrender our freedom and embrace silence on many things, if we find that we cannot support what the Holy Father wants. But it is the Holy Father and our superiors whom we are bound to be faithful to, not to civil laws. They have very little authority within the cloister. We observe them if they are just and moral. Otherwise, we are not bound to do so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Cold weather is the enemy of life. If the earth gets warmer there will be more food producing areas, and that’s good for humans
 
Our world, the ‘natural world’, and the ‘man made world’ is becoming less than what God made it as. We are depleting and disrespecting the natural world that God gave to us, the world that He looked at and said “it was good”. Whether or not the things that people claim are causing global warming really are, most of those things are polluting the world, the human spirit, and the future of mankind.
I don’t deny polution is a problem. I grew up in Southern California. It was notorious for smog. I remember many smoggy days out on the playground and well into adulthood (eyes burning, shortness of breath, coughing). But the state of California got control of it. Yes, they do some things right. They imposed some of the strictest smog control requirements in the country. And it’s been a long time since I’ve experienced anything remotely like the kind of smog we had growing up. And this in spite of population growth and increasing numbers of vehicles. So don’t underestimate the role of technology in managing polution. This is a clear example where it helped.
 
Shut down all fossil fuel engines immediately. All coal burning heating and electric generators. All oil burning anything. All petrochemical plants. There is not a moment too soon. Now. Shut off everything.
In more sensible times, this might be taken for sarcarsm.
 
I don’t deny polution is a problem. I grew up in Southern California. It was notorious for smog. I remember many smoggy days out on the playground and well into adulthood (eyes burning, shortness of breath, coughing). But the state of California got control of it. Yes, they do some things right. They imposed some of the strictest smog control requirements in the country. And it’s been a long time since I’ve experienced anything remotely like the kind of smog we had growing up. And this in spite of population growth and increasing numbers of vehicles. So don’t underestimate the role of technology in managing polution. This is a clear example where it helped.
However, in the vast majority of the country, smog is not the problem that it is in the natural “bowl” hill formations found in parts of California, Denver, and Mexico City.

Just because you have a problem, doesn’t mean everybody else has a problem.
 
I separated this, because it brought a smile to my face. A monk or a friar is not a person who has opinions. He is not a person who wishes and wants. These are the human traits that he is trying to leave behind. He is a man who obeys and is faithful to those in authority. His only wish, desire or want is to see men follow God’s will. His opinions should lead others to follow the will of God, to place God and the Church above himself, and to promote greater charity according to the spirit of his religious community. All these communities are rooted in the Gospel. So whether they get there by train or mule, the point is to arrive at perfect charity.

Therefore, we voluntarilly surrender our freedom and embrace silence on many things, if we find that we cannot support what the Holy Father wants. But it is the Holy Father and our superiors whom we are bound to be faithful to, not to civil laws. They have very little authority within the cloister. We observe them if they are just and moral. Otherwise, we are not bound to do so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Okay…now I get it. No opinions. You post a lot for someone with no opinions, though. 😉 🙂
 
Okay…now I get it. No opinions. You post a lot for someone with no opinions, though. 😉 🙂
:rotfl: You are too funny. Let me help here. Though I usually just muddy the waters.

No opinions means that we never express an opinion that is in conflict with that of authority. However, some superiors are very strict on this and allow no opinions at all, even if you’re supporting one made by authority. But that’s up to the superior.

I’m not so strict. Yes, I am the local superior. My rule is that you may not express any opinions that are in conflict with those of a superior, bishop or post. Other than that, go for it. But if the bishop calls me because you said something dumb, you’re in big trouble.

I post a lot because this is one of my ministries. My superior has clipped my wings since he found out that I have cancer. I used to run a high school for disabled kids, teach at the seminary, do retreat ministry and serve as spiritual director to diocesan priests.

Now I work on the Gospel of Life for 20 hours a week, teach rel ed to grade 6 one afternoon a week, do youth ministry on Sundays oversee this community, teach the novices, and am responsible for recruiting for and forming the members of the new branch of the community, the Francisan Brothers of Life. This is much easier because the furthest I have to travel is three miles. I used to travel 120 miles per day using public transportation, because we have no cars. I had to ride the train 60 miles each way. Now I can take the bus for three miles or on a nice day, I just walk and save us the money. We don’t have much income. Every little bit helps.

In february we are having elections. I’m hoping not to be elected superior of this house again. It’s a small house (three of us), but I get very tired and I forget things like paying the bills on time. As superior it is my job to wash the brothers’ clothes, make their beds, prepare their meals, serve them, clean the house for them, shop for groceries and take care of them. But sometimes it becomes difficult.

The other night one of the brothers had a fever. He woke me up to get permission for a Tylenol. I tried to stay with him until he fell asleep. But I fell asleep on the chair next to him. I think, I tucked him in, but I can’t remember. I was very worn out. Anyway, hopefully on Feb 7, we will have a new superior for this house. I pray.

Don’t get me wrong. The brothers try hard. They pick up their clothes and make their beds, take out the garbage and try to take some things off of my plate. But I don’t like it, because it is the superior’s job to do that.

Anyway, going back to the opinion thing. That’s how I manage that. Each superior has the power of discretion on that matter and many other matters. A lot also depends on the personalities that you have in the house. There are some folks that you have to keep your eyes and ears on, because they are impulsive.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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