Pope Clarifies Luther's Idea of Justification

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Geremia said:
Pope Clarifies Luther’s Idea of Justification
Why does it seem he endorses the doctrine of an arch-heretic? Am I missing something here?
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Reading the article, I think His Holiness qualified his remarks quite clearly. “Faith” must be “tempered by Love” for example, implying that a “saving faith” would be a faith which causes the person expressing such faith, to walk, out of love, in obedience to and conformity to the life and will of Christ. Not really such a radical comment.
 
He didn’t endorse Luther’s doctrine, but rather said if Luther’s phrase “sola fide” is true if understood in an orthodox manner. Coincidentally I have been reading a book by St. Thomas More, when writing of that doctrine said the same thing. What Trent condemned is the error of disconnecting faith from charity, not the faith that the Pope is speaking of here.

I suggest one also read the section in Pope Benedict’s encyclical *Spe Salvi *paragraph 7 he explains Luther’s error in this regard.

It’s always good to remember this Pope is somewhat of an academic and he often writes in a detached manner.
 
Geremia said:
Pope Clarifies Luther’s Idea of JustificationWhy does it seem he endorses the doctrine of an arch-heretic? Am I missing something here?
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Do you object to something in this statement that the Pope made:
And it is because of this, the Bishop of Rome continued, that Luther’s expression “by faith alone” is true “if faith is not opposed to charity, to love. Faith is to look at Christ, to entrust oneself to Christ, to be united to Christ, to be conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence, to believe is to be conformed to Christ and to enter into his love.”
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Or do you just object to the fact that the Pope’s wording interpreted Luther’s remarks in the most positive way possible? Are you upset that the pope missed a chance to call Luther a heretic? Or is what the pope actually said troubling to you?
 
Chris_LaRock said:
Probably for the same reason the RCC has stated that Muslims worship the same god Catholics do, in spite of the fact that the Muslim god doesn’t have a Son. Maybe the RCC is becoming seeker-friendly and making comprimises?
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The Muslim God does have a Son, and his name is Jesus. So does the Jewish God. Would you claim that the God of Abraham has no son? If not, then why would you say that about the Muslims, who worship the God of Abraham.

Where is the respect for the teachings of the church on this forum?
 
Neil_Anthony said:
The Muslim God does have a Son, and his name is Jesus. So does the Jewish God. Would you claim that the God of Abraham has no son? If not, then why would you say that about the Muslims, who worship the God of Abraham.

Where is the respect for the teachings of the church on this forum?
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Muslims reject the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, and deny the Diety of Jesus. They say he didn’t attone for us on the cross. They deny his resurrection.

There’s no way Islamics worship the same God as Christians.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
The Muslim God does have a Son, and his name is Jesus. So does the Jewish God. Would you claim that the God of Abraham has no son? If not, then why would you say that about the Muslims, who worship the God of Abraham.

Where is the respect for the teachings of the church on this forum?
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Could you please provide Church teaching that says this? I do not think you will find one.
 
Geremia said:
Amen!
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Also, the messiah of Islam matched the Biblical description of the “man of sin”, or “anti-christ”. Both anti-christ and ilslam messiah seem fond of a 7 year peace treaty, and killing off Jews and Christians.

But getting back to the topic, I think the Pope is doing this to unite the world religions. I think it’s a step in his attempt to convert all religions to catholicism.
 
Chris_LaRock said:
Muslims reject the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, and deny the Diety of Jesus. They say he didn’t attone for us on the cross. They deny his resurrection.

There’s no way Islamics worship the same God as Christians.
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There’s no doubt they try to worship the same God as Christians.
 
Atreyu said:
There’s no doubt they try to worship the same God as Christians.
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True. I’ll grant you that. But the one and true living God is Triune in nature. The second person of the Trinity was incarnated in the person of Jesus Christ and made attonement for the sins of the world. Only through Him can we be saved. Muslims have been lied to and told they can earn salvation by means of their own works and goodness. They deny the Trinity and salvation through the Messiah Jesus Christ.
 
Chris_LaRock said:
Muslims reject the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, and deny the Diety of Jesus. They say he didn’t attone for us on the cross. They deny his resurrection.

There’s no way Islamics worship the same God as Christians.
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Certainly, their understanding of God is incorrect. And to deny Christ prevents anyone from truly knowing God.

But I think it’s important to emphasize that there is only ONE God. And that anyone who talks about the one God who made heaven and earth, is basically talking about the same God, even if they have incorrect ideas about what God is like. How can we talk about someone worshipping another God when there is only one God.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Certainly, their understanding of God is incorrect. And to deny Christ prevents anyone from truly knowing God.

But I think it’s important to emphasize that there is only ONE God. And that anyone who talks about the one God who made heaven and earth, is basically talking about the same God, even if they have incorrect ideas about what God is like. How can we talk about someone worshipping another God when there is only one God.
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Worshipping one God doesn’t automatically mean they are worshipping the True and living God. The god of Islam is completely different than the God worshipped by Christians and Jews. Just compare the Qur’an and the Bible. Both books couldn’t have come from the same God, unless God somehow changed His mind somewhere between the death of the last Apostle and when Mohammed was born. But God doesn’t change.
 
Chris_LaRock said:
Worshipping one God doesn’t automatically mean they are worshipping the True and living God. The god of Islam is completely different than the God worshipped by Christians and Jews. Just compare the Qur’an and the Bible. Both books couldn’t have come from the same God, unless God somehow changed His mind somewhere between the death of the last Apostle and when Mohammed was born. But God doesn’t change.
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I don’t think the Koran came from any God. Why do you talk about gods as if there’s more than one of them.

The bible comes from God, and the Koran was invented by Mohammed, maybe with the help of the devil. Still, I think if a well-meaning muslim intends to worship the creator, their prayers are directed to the triune God we believe in.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
I don’t think the Koran came from any God. Why do you talk about gods as if there’s more than one of them.

The bible comes from God, and the Koran was invented by Mohammed, maybe with the help of the devil. Still, I think if a well-meaning muslim intends to worship the creator, their prayers are directed to the triune God we believe in.
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1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
 
Chris_LaRock said:
Muslims reject the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, and deny the Diety of Jesus. They say he didn’t attone for us on the cross. They deny his resurrection.

There’s no way Islamics worship the same God as Christians.
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Then what about this?

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

That is the Church’s teaching. The holy church acknowledges that they worship the God of Abraham, the same God christians and jew worship. They do however see him through a ‘cracked lens’ if you will.
 
Chris_LaRock said:
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
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I’m distinguishing between the identity of God and the characteristics of God. And I think when it comes to monotheistic religions, “the one and only creator of all things” is enough to identify a particular being, regardless of what other attributes you believe God has.

Otherwise where do you draw the line? If I believe Jesus had brown hair and another person believes Jesus had black hair, are we worshipping different gods?
 
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