Pope Could Soon Say ‘I Do’ to Married Priests–and Open a Schism

[AlNg]

I think in general the east and west has flip flopped on this issue.

In what year did the Eastern Orthodox Church ever forbid married men from becoming priests?
Yes, there was a time when married bishops were allowed and then not allowed, but i am not aware of any time in the 2000 year history of the Church when the Eastern Orthodox church did not allow married men to be ordained to the priesthood.

 

[IdaCatholic]

The EO does not have a 2000 year history.

 

[AlNg]

The EO does not have a 2000 year history.

I am speaking about the Eastern Churches. How far back do you think the history of the Eastern churches goes? When was it ever forbidden in the Eastern Churches to ordain a married man to the priesthood?

 

[IdaCatholic]

I dont know. I’m not eastern. You tell me. Did the easttern churches continuously ordain married men from 400 - 1000
That’s 6 centuries.

If so, fascinating.
Are there any eastern churches in the remote areas of the Amazon?

 

[AlNg]

Did the easttern churches continuously ordain married men from 400 - 1000

As already mentioned,
I think it was from 32 AD until today 2019. I don’t believe that the eastern Churches ever forbade married men from being ordained to the priesthood.

Are there any eastern churches in the remote areas of the Amazon?

There are 4 Antiochan Orthodox churches in Brazil
There are 2 Orthodox Cathedrals in Brazil
There are 2 Greek Orthocox churches in Brazil
There are 3 Orthodox churches in Sao Paulo
There are 2 Orthodox churches in Rio Grande do Sul
There are 5 Russian Orthodox Churches in Brazil.

 

[IdaCatholic]

Those churches are in cities. The crisis is in the rural Amazon.

 

[AlNg]

Those churches are in cities. The crisis is in the rural Amazon.

What is your solution for the crisis in rural Amazon?

 

[IdaCatholic]

A renewed focus in the Church of missionary work, encouraging ordinations for the express purpose of “going out” into the world to spread the Gospel. Catechists in the Amazon so that the laity and potential priests are given the tools and knowledge needed to spread the Gospel, A commitment from Rome to offer tangible and bodily aid to the Amazon up to and including placing priests in the area. I live in a well to do area of the USA. We have not only multiple parishes with multiple priests, but we have most of our priests from foreign places. We, like many places in the US do not “grow our own” Within an hour’s travel of my house in heavy traffic there are 17 priests and 7 parishes. Most of those priests are not from the US. Africa, mexico, Colombia, France, the Netherlands, the basque country, etc. Now, we have established recently (within the last 15 years) a new parish to serve the suburban part of our city that is modeled after “mega Churches”. It has the most parishioners, the most programs, etc. I don’t necessarily like it, but that is just personal taste. The point is that we could easily get by with half the parishes in our area. In fact one parish in the downtown area is a half mile from another. And both are not very well attended. Having talked with many of the priests who are from somewhere else. This is a safe, affluent, and friendly environment. But it is indeed unchurched.

The answer to the Amazon is a commitment from the Universal Church to go and serve and perhaps die in that mission. Which is how the Church operated for centuries. What the Amazon needs is the intercession of Saint Romero. Pope Francis canonized him last year. Aside from the political views of this saint was the willingness to serve the poor dangerous areas of Latin America and die for it. So the answer to the Amazon is not to ordain the married men who do not have access to the catechisis of the Church in the area. But rather to pray for and find and send “Romeros” to the area. I am largely critical of the Pope’s theology and politics. But one thing I absolutely pray for and believe is that he will be influenced by this saint whom he canonized. But one thing I do know and believe, is that if Romero was married the outcome and his actions very well could have been different, and the already poor Church would need to provide for his widow.

And if married priesthood is the answer here, then I would expect the surplus of priests in the Eastern rites to be sending in their men!

 

[IdaCatholic]

IdaCatholic:

Did the easttern churches continuously ordain married men from 400 - 1000

As already mentioned,
I think it was from 32 AD until today 2019. I don’t believe that the eastern Churches ever forbade married men from being ordained to the priesthood.

Are there any eastern churches in the remote areas of the Amazon?

There are 4 Antiochan Orthodox churches in Brazil
There are 2 Orthodox Cathedrals in Brazil
There are 2 Greek Orthocox churches in Brazil
There are 3 Orthodox churches in Sao Paulo
There are 2 Orthodox churches in Rio Grande do Sul
There are 5 Russian Orthodox Churches in Brazil.

I did say remote amazon.

For the record there are 968 Mcdonalds in Brazil. And I’m betting none in the areas the Church is trying to address.

 

[AlNg]

I did say remote amazon.

For the record there are 968 Mcdonalds in Brazil.

I don’t have all the answers, but I know that there are (at least) 650 McDonald’s in Russia.

Within an hour’s travel of my house in heavy traffic there are 17 priests and 7 parishes. Most of those priests are not from the US. Africa, mexico, Colombia, France, the Netherlands, the basque country, etc…)

In Russia, just about all the Russian Orthodox priests (which allows married priests) are from Russia. And the Russian Orthodox Church has been expanding enormously under President Putin. After a few years of Putin, even twelve years ago, the Russian Orthodox Church had over 30,000 parishes, 169 bishops, 700 monasteries, two universites, five theological academies and 75 theological schools. From1988 to 2016 there was an INCREASE of
217 dioceses
208 bishops
28,000 parishes
29,000 priests
900 monasteries.
Why is it that the Russian Orthodox church (with married priests) is expanding so rapidly with Russian Orthodox priests, whereas the Roman Catholic Church in the USA (with celibate priests) has to import so many foreign priests and shut down so many churches, and several dioceses have filed for bankruptcy?

married priests would be a disaster.

I don’t see how anyone could say that married priests have been a disaster for the Russian Orthodox Church and that celibate priests have not been a disaster for the Roman Catholic church.
Look as the statistics:
Number of priests in the Russian Orthodox church (allows married priests):
1988 – 6674 priests
2016 — 35,171 priests
An increase of 28, 174.
Number of priests in the US Roman Catholic Church (requires clerical celibacy with a few exceptions):
1985 —57,317
2015 – 37,192
A decrease of 20,125.
Take a look at the BANKRUPTCY statistics.
As of September 2019, twenty five Catholic religious organizations in the USA have filed for bankruptcy. Note: The Catholic church generally requires priests to be celibate (with a few exceptions).
AFAIK, ZERO Russian Orthodox religious organizations in Russia have filed for bankruptcy. NOTE: the Russian Orthodox Church allows for married priests.
I don’t see why anyone would say that having married priests would be a disaster. Quite the contrary. Compare the bankruptcy statistics. Compare the increase in the number of priests.

 

[IdaCatholic]

Oh I see where you are going with that. Yeah, I’m not going down that rabbit hole. It sounds like the Russian orthodox has a moral responsibility to send its priests to the Amazon.

 

[twf]

It’s an apples to oranges comparison. Russia was under communist rule for decades. The Russian Orthodox Church was persecuted. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Church thankfully went through a natural period of renewal. There was renewed interest in the faith and people were allowed to openly embrace it without restrictions. Of course there was going to be a surge in numbers. It’s a unique situation. That said… Russia still has many social issues (high abortion rate being one example).

That all said, I have no issue with married priests.

 

[AlNg]

I’m not going down that rabbit hole.

I can understand why. Your claim that “married priests would be a disaster” does not hold up.

It’s an apples to oranges comparison.

Maybe. But it still shows that an apostolic Church can work very well with married priests.

 

[jack63]

Indeed. Yet it should be limited and only in special circumstances . The call from Scripture remains. There’s a reason why the Latin Church boldly Christianized the earth, and that is because they were free from family responsibilities, children and having to please a wife.

The Latin Church and it’s missionaries Christianized the earth. Married priests fulfilled different roles in society. But the fruits of celibacy are tremendously powerful.

Personally, I think there is a time and place for celibacy, and there is a time and place for married priests. Both are beautiful and blessed traditions. Both are Biblical. I think we should not be rigid with one solution or the other.

Personally, I think the fruits are celibacy are complicated. Did you ever watch the movie “The Mission” about the Jesuits struggles in central America. Yes, the Jesuits helped bring Christianity to south America. The movie also shows the truth which is they were kicked out of most of the missions that they founded. Here we are still struggling with how to make sure south America has enough priests. We tried large scale communities of celibate priests. At first it helped, but in the long-term it failed. It is ok and even a good idea to try married priests. Married priests are a clearly biblical solution that St. Paul described in detail.

 

[IdaCatholic]

No, your stats are misleading just as you did before. Why do you think 1988 to now had an Increase if RUSSIAN orthodox priests? All of the sudden the married priesthood flourished? Or could it have to do with the supreme pontiff of the western Catholic Church, coupled with the USA in the defeat of communism and the winning of the cold war? I mean this is just absolutely fruitless. I will restate. If the answer to the Amazon is a married priesthood, I’m sure the married priests of all the rites allowing it can go to the aid of the Amazon. Heck, give my state a few!

 

[AlNg]

If the answer to the Amazon is a married priesthood,

The title to this thread does not mention the Amazon, but married priests opening a schism in the Church. I don’t see how it would be a disaster to have married priests. Can you please explain your contention that allowing (but not requiring) married priests would be a disaster, when allowing married priests has worked well in other Apostolic Churches?

 

[IdaCatholic]

No, I’m done, this is more exhausting than it ought to be. We are discussing the Amazon synod about the crisis in the Amazon.

 

[jack63]

An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. -1 Cor. 7.32-34

This needs to be put in context.

Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. (1 Corinthians 7:25)

 

[AlNg]

No, I’m done,

I am guessing that I can understand why you would not want to defend your position that married priests would be a disaster. Could it be because your position is not credible ?

 

[IdaCatholic]

Sure. I’ll concede that. My opinion is not only not credible but ridiculous. I have changed my mind.