Pope: Counter a culture of waste with solidarity

[LisaA]

Lisa, both depend ultimately on whether we are made in the image of God and is why we should ultimately treat everyone with dignity. If I see the dignity of weakest and most vulnerable (which includes the unborn), why wouldn’t I want them to have a just distribution of wealth?Caritas in Veritate 37. Redistribution of wealth is mentioned 8 times in this encyclical. Do you still disagree? The importance is that the common good requires it.

I agree wealth is not distributed justly in this world. However nothing in the Pope’s encyclical would support what I believe you support and that is “Robbing Peter to pay Paul” via a government taxation and redistribution system. Governments are never fair or just nor as Pope Benedict states in his encyclical on love, can they provide compassion. Thus I believe were these governments to adopt Catholic Social Teaching, a more just distribution of assets and wealth would result.

But they haven’t and they won’t so we need to forget about governments being the solution to the problems of the world. Governments have been the cause of more death, destruction, poverty and torture than any other entity.

Thus I generally find that those promoting wealth redistribution think they or their party or their particular cause should be in charge. I am incredibly suspicious of any such proposals, particularly when in this country, this is the Democrat platform and this party promotes abortion as almost a sacred rite. They begin by supporting an intrinsic evil and no amount of social programs will put their approach in line with the Church.

However this started with your frankly specious claim that Republicans were all about making money, buying arms and treading upon the poor. I have endeavored to explain that your view of the Republican platform is erroneous and I suspect based on Democrat talking points. While I do not put my faith in princes, which includes politicians, I find that the Republican platform and Republican candidates/politicians are more in line with the Church’s teaching, particularly with respect to the role of government.

Now I’ve responded to you multiple times while you continue to dodge and fail to address my questions regarding your perspective. I believe you are a Liberal, probably Democrat and thus have both a negative and erroneous view of Conservatism. Am I correct?

Lisa

 

[Tony_Micelli]

I believe you are a Liberal, probably Democrat and thus have both a negative and erroneous view of Conservatism. Am I correct?

I have never voted democrat in my life, nor do I plan to. But I don’t think the GOP represents conservatism. Basically I despise Randisim like I despise Marxism. Actually it was the writings of GKC and Tolkien that opened my eyes to the problems inherent in our society on both sides of the political spectrum.

 

[Schism_hater]

Please quit using bumper stickers to demonize half of America. The Bush tax cuts were not only across the board but more people went completely OFF the tax rolls due to low income. The lowest group had a fifty percent reduction. Further the tax cuts increased revenue to the Treasury just as happened under Reagan and Kennedy.

The DEMOCRATS opposed legislation that might have prevented the collapse of Fanny and Freddy which was part of the snowball that destroyed our economy. The death knell was promoted by Obamacare (Democrat) and Dodd Frank (Democrat).

Tell me what regulations Bush opposed? He was the one who tried multiple times to rein in Freddy and Fanny, to warn of their collapse. Did you hear these two are even worse off than originally thought?
Lisa

And you accuse me of talking in “bumper stickers”- that’s rich. Yeah, the crash was caused by Freddy and Fanny, not by the greedy desire by the big banks down to the smaller mortgage brokers to make a quick buck- right. Your ideology has made you blind.

 

[Schism_hater]

I have never voted democrat in my life, nor do I plan to. But I don’t think the GOP represents conservatism. Basically I despise Randisim like I despise Marxism. Actually it was the writings of GKC and Tolkien that opened my eyes to the problems inherent in our society on both sides of the political spectrum.

God bless you.

 

[rlg94086]

They both adhered religiously to the exaltation of profit, which is what this Pope is referring to. Ryan was a disciple of Ayn Rand. Enough said.

Wrong on both accounts. You take a simplistic, black and white, view of people. You are confusing the recognition of the importance of profit as the “exaltation of profit,” and you are mistaking being influenced by some of an author’s views as being a “disciple.”

The Church is not opposed to profit, in fact She recognizes the importance of profit, since a non-profitable business venture will eventually have a negative impact on the lives of its employees.

Also, being in favor of profit does not make one in favor of “a culture of waste.”

 

[Abbigaelann]

Thank you…I know better than to trust all from Huffington Post, but at least I got the gist.

The Pope is also speaking on a global scale, and is this the forum for US ‘local politics’? Perhaps another venue might be more suitable?

Should we also not fight this battle within our churches? 10 percent in tithes…oh like for redistribution of wealth amongst the parishes, the diocese, the world, for the poor? Is this not the work of Love, of God…and with that 10% are we just talking food, or medicine and education to become self sufficient with gratitude to God through Christ?! The Bible is not socialistic or it wouldn’t have given such excellent investment advice, in its understanding of human nature. Our problems with trickle down theory go with the same types of problems with those merely utilizing top down analysis. For without it going in both directions, what can be achieved? The top can tell the bottom what to do all it wants, but until there is understanding of the bottom from the middle and the top, and understanding of the top and middle from the bottome…they won’t get it done. There will not be the cooperation necessary for any implmentations to be effective…Moses…brought the ten commandments out…still these guys messed up. God sent Christ to walk amongst all, to talk with the poor, to work with them, for understanding…then did He take it back up to the top? I like to see people making a profit…but when on some ‘catholic’ web sites, it’s almost as if they’re smacking of simony or reminiscent of the ‘Holy Rood’ of Chaucer or Paradise Lost? It makes me ill.

The computer industry itself mirrors waste of our government. Taking functional things, breaking them up into smaller less functional things, selling the bits and pieces for more, yet the smaller pieces growing as that deficit grows as if government were the be all end all for employment and answers. Leading to more and more govmt, more and more deficit, etc. Can we stop this with the growing bureaucracy of the church? Sure with more volunteers? When how many parishioners need work? Mother Theresa did great work feeding the poor…but my contention is let us also teach them skills…feed more than their hunger for food…Become more, live up to their God given potentials, thus be able to help the world more, themselves, and give more to the church that even more can, will, and must be done! St Joseph the Worker, St Elizabeth Ann Seton, St Clair…now isn’t it time we put it all together? Work, education, the poor…Why I wanted to start companies and put people to work…but newly, differently…to raise values and standards of living…

 

[Schism_hater]

you are mistaking being influenced by some of an author’s views as being a “disciple.”

Paul Ryan said that Ayn Rand’s writings had the biggest influence on his going into politics. That is a fact. I’m not going to take the time to dig up the statements, which I’m sure you’ve seen, but Ryan spoke many times of Ayn Rand as being a huge influence on his views. Of course when he was named Romney’s running mate his campaign attempted a rearguard whitewash campaign, but that should fool nobody.

The fact is that Rand has a tremendous influence on the philosophy of the GOP, particulalrly the “libertarian” wing.

 

[rlg94086]

"rlg94086:

you are mistaking* being influenced*** by some of an author’s views as being a “disciple.”

Paul Ryan said that Ayn Rand’s writings had the biggest** influence** on his going into politics. That is a fact. I’m not going to take the time to dig up the statements, which I’m sure you’ve seen, but Ryan spoke many times of Ayn Rand as being a huge influence on his views. Of course when he was named Romney’s running mate his campaign attempted a rearguard whitewash campaign, but that should fool nobody.

The fact is that Rand has a tremendous influence on the philosophy of the GOP, particulalrly the “libertarian” wing.

In other words, you agree with my statement. Thanks.

 

[LisaA]

Paul Ryan said that Ayn Rand’s writings had the biggest influence on his going into politics. That is a fact. I’m not going to take the time to dig up the statements, which I’m sure you’ve seen, but Ryan spoke many times of Ayn Rand as being a huge influence on his views. Of course when he was named Romney’s running mate his campaign attempted a rearguard whitewash campaign, but that should fool nobody.

The fact is that Rand has a tremendous influence on the philosophy of the GOP, particulalrly the “libertarian” wing.

When will the black helicopters descend?

Honestly this canard is amazing. The word “Haliburton” puts Democrats into a frenzy and there is a similar Pavlovian reaction to Ayn Rand. She wrote novels, long novels that created scenarios and espoused a particular philosophy. If someone read the novels and found some portion of them enlightening or instructional or influential, it does not mean they worshiped at her feet. In fact it sounds like she was quite an odious person in real life. If we reject all artists because we don’t agree with their politics or reject anyone who was influenced by them, that seems incredibly narrow minded.

I found The Fountainhead very enlightening and it had a huge influence on my political outlook. That doesn’t mean I became a cigarette smoking, shart tongued atheist because I read her book. I like some of Lady Gaga’s music but I detest her vulgarity, her mannerisms and the way she dresses. Again, you can appreciate art/writing/music and not turn into the artist.

The whole Ayn Rand as Alien phenomenon is a total mystery to me . And I don’t think she promoted waste did she?

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

And you accuse me of talking in “bumper stickers”- that’s rich. Yeah, the crash was caused by Freddy and Fanny, not by the greedy desire by the big banks down to the smaller mortgage brokers to make a quick buck- right. Your ideology has made you blind.

You apparently didn’t read the post too carefully. I said the Democrats were against legislation that would have reined in Fanny and Freddy which were PART of the reason for the collapse. Try addressing the post and avoiding ad hominems.

Lisa

 

[Schism_hater]

I found The Fountainhead very enlightening and it had a huge influence on my political outlook. That doesn’t mean I became a cigarette smoking, shart tongued atheist because I read her book. I like some of Lady Gaga’s music but I detest her vulgarity, her mannerisms and the way she dresses. Again, you can appreciate art/writing/music and not turn into the artist.

It obviously isn’t Rand’s smoking or sharp tongue that is at issue; when you or Paul Ryan acknowledges her influence, it is obviously for her ideas, so any Lady Gaga comparions are inapt. That being said, you or Paul Ryan would have been much better off picking up Ayn Rand’s cigarette smoking or her “sharp tongue” than her political ideas. Her political and economic ideas are a direct result of her atheism. If nothing else, she was impeccably consistent in her philosophy. She herself would have scoffed at the idea of someone consistently being a believing Christian and at the same time embracing her political philosophy. But I do appreciate your forthrightness in acknowledging her huge influence on your political outlook.

When will the black helicopters descend?

What were you just telling me in another post about ad hominem attacks?

 

[LisaA]

It obviously isn’t Rand’s smoking or sharp tongue that is at issue; when you or Paul Ryan acknowledges her influence, it is obviously for her ideas, so any Lady Gaga comparions are inapt. That being said, you or Paul Ryan would have been much better off picking up Ayn Rand’s cigarette smoking or her “sharp tongue” than her political ideas. Her political and economic ideas are a direct result of her atheism. If nothing else, she was impeccably consistent in her philosophy. She herself would have scoffed at the idea of someone consistently being a believing Christian and at the same time embracing her political philosophy. But I do appreciate your forthrightness in acknowledging her huge influence on your political outlook.

When will the black helicopters descend?

Neither Paul Ryan nor I read Ayn Rand’s books for her theological viewpoint. In fact I don’t recall that was even much of theme.Her philosophy reflected reality and that’s why I found it influential. Those who think human nature is something beautiful and perfectable are living in dreamland. Rand was right that human beings are naturally selfish and we can count on this selfishness far more than we can count on their altruism. Whether or not Rand thought altruism was a laudable characteristic is irrelevant to me. I suspect she did not. But when I realized that the perspective that human beings were naturally “good” and generous and self giving was utopian baloney, I had a far greater understanding of the social problems we all face. BTW at the time I read The Fountainhead, I was also an atheist.

I find the hysteria about reading novels written in the 1950s quite fascinating. You are apparently new to CAF but during the election there were a few posters who attributed amazing powers to a dead atheist. Quite the feat but rather overvblown. I learned some things from Rand, I learned from Leon Uris, I learned from John Steinbeck, I learned from Wallace Stegner and many other authors. And your point is what

Again what about reading Ayn Rand leads to a culture of waste? I am endeavoring to find a way back the the thread from this recent rabbit trail

Lisa

 

[rlg94086]

Again what about reading Ayn Rand leads to a culture of waste? I am endeavoring to find a way back the the thread from this recent rabbit trail

Lisa

Exactly. Even if you ignore the confused assessment of Romney and Ryan by that poster, how would any of it lead one to believe they support wastefulness?

 

[Tony_Micelli]

Exactly. Even if you ignore the confused assessment of Romney and Ryan by that poster, how would any of it lead one to believe they support wastefulness?

The wastefulness is not just about material waste, but human. I think Romney represented the “invisible hands”, “trickle down wealth” economics that would view people as a means to an end where efficientcy and profit rule and human happiness isn’t considered. This is what our Holy Father is warning us about. How can anyone say Wall Street isn’t the heart of this kind of thing?

 

[markomalley]

How can anyone say Wall Street isn’t the heart of this kind of thing?

So I take it that you are not a union member? (Or that your union does not have a retirement fund)

Or not a teacher?

Or ***not ***a government employee?

and that you do not participate in a 401(a), 401(k), or 475(b) retirement plan?

 

[LisaA]

The wastefulness is not just about material waste, but human. I think Romney represented the “invisible hands”, “trickle down wealth” economics that would view people as a means to an end where efficientcy and profit rule and human happiness isn’t considered. This is what our Holy Father is warning us about. How can anyone say Wall Street isn’t the heart of this kind of thing?

You don’t really have much accurate information on Romney as a person or a candidate. As a Mormon, he has personally been extremely charitable, far more than any Democrat you can trot out. Not only did he give substantial sums of money but as an Elder of the Mormon church he has personally given his time and talent along with treasure. Further knowing about his personal habits and life, while yes he is rich, he is also thrifty and responsbile.

It just astonishes me that some seem to believe wealth is evil. If it’s used for good purposes, then it’s a far different story than if it’s used for selfish indulgences or worse yet outrageous and sinful activity. The Hollywood set for example, spending on jewelry, lavish parties, drugs, ostentatious weddings and vacations never seem to come into the crosshairs of those complaining about Wall Street or fatcat bankers. Obviously I don’t support greed and self indulgence but far better someone like Romney whose endeavors created jobs and companies rather than violent movies, vulgar lyrics and outrageous displays of sinful and debauched behavior. Or how about JayZ and Beyonce, frequent guests at the White House, travelling to Cuba for a lavish vacation while the people are oppressed and living under a dictator? Compare this to someone like Franklin Graham whose charity Samaritan’s Purse travels to countries to bring aid and care to starving and sick people. This organization came into the crosshairs of the IRS.

The evil agenda of this country’s glitterati is touted and honored by POTUS while organizations that actually HELP people as the Holy Father implores are under attack…go figure.

Again I don’t support self indulgent greed and ignoring the plight of the poor while driving around in your Ferrari, draped in expensive clothes and bling. But Wall Street is not a person, it’s a place. Attack the people who are promoting selfishness, don’t complain about capitalism when that is what helps more people out of poverty than any government program or charity. Countries that protect property rights do not have people starving in the streets. The rights to own means of production, one’s home and land gives freedom to succeed and with proper mind to share the gifts God has given you.

Lisa

 

[rlg94086]

The wastefulness is not just about material waste, but human. I think Romney represented the “invisible hands”, “trickle down wealth” economics that would view people as a means to an end where efficientcy and profit rule and human happiness isn’t considered. This is what our Holy Father is warning us about. How can anyone say Wall Street isn’t the heart of this kind of thing?

Baseless accusations.