Pope, Curia to discuss reconciliation with SSPX

[Red_Meg]

Here goes…

For what it’s worth, Alfredo, not every Catholic, either at CAF or out in the real world fits the caricature you have drawn.

While I cannot speak for anyone else here, I can say that I do, in fact, go to Confession every week. Every day of the week, I attend Mass, say the Rosary, and spend a good chunk of time in prayer and doing spiritual reading. And I do all this while caring for my family of seven children (so far) ranging from 1-12 years old. I hope it’s obvious that my husband and I do not condone the use of contraceptives.

I know full well that I am not a saint. But everyday I try to be one, relying on God’s grace. This is not about feeling good about myself, it’s about fulfilling Christ’s admonition in the Sermon on the Mount to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.

If you are really unable to see nothing even remotely good among any of the Catholics who are not part of the SSPX, then frankly, you have my sympathy.

 

[alfredo123]

Red Meg:

Here goes…

For what it’s worth, Alfredo, not every Catholic, either at CAF or out in the real world fits the caricature you have drawn.

While I cannot speak for anyone else here, I can say that I do, in fact, go to Confession every week. Every day of the week, I attend Mass, say the Rosary, and spend a good chunk of time in prayer and doing spiritual reading. And I do all this while caring for my family of seven children (so far) ranging from 1-12 years old. I hope it’s obvious that my husband and I do not condone the use of contraceptives.

I know full well that I am not a saint. But everyday I try to be one, relying on God’s grace. This is not about feeling good about myself, it’s about fulfilling Christ’s admonition in the Sermon on the Mount to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.

If you are really unable to see nothing even remotely good among any of the Catholics who are not part of the SSPX, then frankly, you have my sympathy.

There is no doubt in my mind that you are a good and wonderful person. And there are such in every Church. However, Vatican II has not helped things along for the Church, which is in a mess right now.
Thank you so much for sharing your story with us, and I hope that you and your family will enjoy a multitude of blessings and good fortune in the years to come.
Your excommunicated friend at SSPX.

 

[rlg94086]

I’m a convert, and I was starting to show some interested in the traditional Mass. Quite frankly, if your posts are indicative of the charity of “traditional” Catholics, I’m not sure I will follow up on that interest by going to an SSPX Mass.

alfredo123:

I don’t think that you have p(name removed by moderator)ointed the difference. The real difference is that you people are blind to the fact that it was Vatican II which opened up the Church to these abuses, and that it was wrong to excommunicate people who were trying to keep to the true Catholic faith as it was practiced for years and years before Vatican II came along and nearly destroyed the Catholic Church. Your only answer was to excommunicate and condemn people who want to pray the Latin Mass and the rosary at SSPX.
Anyway, I wish everyone well, and I hope you will all enjoy the latest showing of the Vagina Monologues on St. Valentine’s day at your local Catholic college. By the way, how many Catholics these days are attending Mass or observing the regulations regarding artificial birth control? I see that most Catholics go to Holy Communion anyway, but few are at confession? I guess that you are all Saints, so good for you and your clown Masses. I hope that you enjoy all these great changes and you feel good about yourself and find that you have no need of confession before Holy Communion. Good luck from your excommunicated SSPX friend.

 

[tradconvert]

I am also a convert and I actually was received into the Church through the SSPX and still respect their approach to the traditional mass, practices and their devotion to the Catholic faith. I don’t always attend SSPX masses, but always whereever possible attend the traditional latin mass as I travel a lot in my work.
But I strongly believe that the SSPX’s future lies in a suitable relationship with the Church which regularises its currently rather ambiguous situation. If it is under some form of autonomy and therefore able to continue all the wonderful work it is doing now to bring souls to Christ, then we in the one holy, true and apostolic Church will have a win-win situation including I would predict a great uptake in numbers of faithful who find their spiritual needs are served best by attendance at the traditional mass and traditional practice of the faith - including of course the rosary, bendeiction eucharistic adoration etc etc.
Being aggressive and antagonistic to good Catholics is not a smart idea.

 

[Melanie01]

I too hope for a reconciliation, but there are a lot of things to work out…

As an attendee to an SPPX chapel I have found the Tridentine Mass a beautiful and fitting offering. I too have gone to the occasional Pauline Mass and found it …lacking…

The RCC is indeed in troubled waters and no-one should be finger pointing and going holier than thou to one another…

One of the reasons for all the innovations of Vatican 2 in my humble opinion was the holier than thou attitudes of the 50s rather than a charitable and sympathetic assistance to those in need.

However, we can all take comfort on the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail upon mother Church so we as Catholics should pray and practise charity…Be Not Afraid

 

[Walt_Oliver]

I would like to remind all participants that the topic of this thread is the possible reconciliation between the Church and the SSPX. The topic is not “Let’s bash the post-Vatican II Church.” Thanks to all of you who are trying to stay on topic.

Walt

 

[Nohome]

I spent a good part of last night reading the history of this disagreement. Unfortunately, it is often difficult to assess the bias of web page reports. Anyhow, I think it will be interesting to see how the Vatican can meet the demands of SSPX without bringing in to question its own actions.

One question, I read that there is a group of SSPX members that have sort of splintered off on their own, refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of any Vatican II popes. Does anyone have a link to information about this group?

Nohome

 

[Adonis33]

Nohome:

I spent a good part of last night reading the history of this disagreement. Unfortunately, it is often difficult to assess the bias of web page reports. Anyhow, I think it will be interesting to see how the Vatican can meet the demands of SSPX without bringing in to question its own actions.

One question, I read that there is a group of SSPX members that have sort of splintered off on their own, refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of any Vatican II popes. Does anyone have a link to information about this group?

Nohome

You are referring to (I think) the SSPV - which is a sedevacanist group spintered from SSPX. Sorry - I do not have a link.

 

[Adonis33]

rlg94086:

I’m a convert, and I was starting to show some interested in the traditional Mass. Quite frankly, if your posts are indicative of the charity of “traditional” Catholics, I’m not sure I will follow up on that interest by going to an SSPX Mass.

Alfredo does not speak for all Catholics who prefer the TLM. I converted about 20 years ago - and have since only gone to a SSPX chapel. The only mass that I have really known is the TLM.

I find his rant to be disgusting and full of pride. Many of us who go to a SSPX are simply in love with the Latin Mass, although there are many who have a similar attitude. (It is for the attitude of individuals like Alfredo - I am heavily considering going ti the Indult - or trying to find a conservative NO Mass).

If you are truly interested in the Latin Mass - try an indult, or look for a FSSP Mass - if your area has one. If you do go to a SSPX mass, just go for the beauty that is the TLM (especially if it is a high mass). SSPX masses are always done with reverence.

I for one absolutley hope for a reconciliation with the Holy See.

 

[tpraines]

Boy oh boy, what fun!

As I mention on another thread before it was shut down because of similar negative comments, the stumbling blocks are now more about ego than theology.

I pray for reconciliation. B-16 is probably the most qualified to discuss the issues and hash it out. From what I can tell you have all the SSPX bishops in agreements except one, a convert I believe. If reconciliation does not happen under B-16, it will most likely never happen. Because B-16e understands the original issues, newer SSPX individuals probably do not. If reconciliation doesn’t happen soon, we will forget about why we are really fighting and the feud will continue for other less important reasons.

You can demonstrate that a gun will shoot bullets without shooting the bullets at me! Fine, a lot of the misinterpretations came from Vatican II, but that doesn’t mean it was wrong. We are now coming to an awareness (or some call it the awakening) of the abuses that leaked into the Mother Church. Some of us have had enough and we are demanding (from the inside out - not the outside yelling in!) change and reverence. We are rediscovering our traditional roots and it is beautiful.

For example: If my brother and I were about to be in a huge conflict with another punch of schoolkids because he ran his mouth when he should not have. I have a choice, I could walk away and let him fall on his face and possibly get hurt or I stand with him and defend him so that maybe he will come to understand my love for him and learn the err of his ways.

I read an interesting article about whether canoncially (i.e was the Holy Spirit present) at the ordination/consecration of the bishops under Abp Lefevre. With my trust in the Holy Spirit, I must say that the Holy Spirit was probably there alive and well, just like it was there throughout Vatican II. Why should the catholics who stayed with Rome have any reason to accept the SSPX view that the Holy Spirit did not guide Vatican II, when you are trying to convince us the Holy Spirit was present and guided your Holy Orders, validity? This confuses me. SSPX, which I love, does not mean anti Vatican II!

Fine we all screwed up a little. Why can’t we leave our egos at the doors and let the Holy Spirit move us towards reconciliation?

 

[alfredo123]

tpraines:

Why can’t we leave our egos at the doors and let the Holy Spirit move us towards reconciliation?

It really isn’t a matter of ego, it is a matter of right versus wrong. If a few people say 2+2=4, whereas the other which is in the overwhelming majority and a huge number insist that 2+2=3, it doesn’t really matter that they have the majority, they are still wrong and the small number which insists that 2+2=4 is right. So, I am opposed to reconciliation until the majority admits its errors and agrees to preach the truth. This includes the things I mentioned above, which apparently somone doesn’t like. Well, I didn’t create this mess, I only see it, and I am trying to do the right thing and oppose a reconciliation of the Latin Mass and the latin Gregorian chant with the clown Mass or the “Kum Bah Yah at an outdoor guitar Mass for lesbians”, and the other things I already mentioned.

 

[GWS]

If what I have found in the FSSP’s application of the Traditional Latin rite Mass is any indication of what the SSPX’s TLMs are like, then the reconciliation of the SSPX with Rome can only be a good thing for all parties concerned.

I will begin to worship “full-time” in the FSSP’s Traditional rite at the beginning of Lent. In order to do this, I have to “relocate” from the church I have attended faithfully for nearly ten years, to a different church in another area of the city, where the Diocesan-approved liturgy is held. I see no reason why this liturgy should not be available to all Catholics, which I understand is also one of the SSPX’s conditions for reconciliation.

I, too, will pray for the SSPX’s reconciliation with the Church of Rome – and the sooner, the better.

 

[geezerbob]

Alfredo or Stanley or whatever name you prefer today, your comparisons are stretched. If you have a small group on one side of the fence saying 2 plus 2 equals 4, and, on the other side you have a very large group saying the same thing except for a few radicals who are saying the answer is 3 or 5, please explain to all of us how you justify trying to assign the error of a few to the larger group.

You’ve been around the forums under one name or another long enough to know that the clown masses and other abuses you described are just that: abuses. They are not approved by the Vatican, the faithful are doing what they can to eliminate them, and their existence does not condemn the rest of the Church who are not participating in them. But, since you profess to be more Catholic than the Pope, I don’t guess you’ll ever be able to look at things in the proper perspective.

 

[JamesG]

the pope should make the SSPX the defenders of the faith.

In medieval times we had knights who upheld the teaching of the church
.

At the moment we have nothing to defend the church except a bunch weak willed cowardly bishops that are afraid proliferate a call of repentance.

They would rather hide behind the church in fear of rejection then to accept the fact that the word of God was rejected the moment it was spoken.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Reconcilliation between the Vatican and SSPX will be a good thing for Catholicism. The SSPX Mass is very reverent and beautilful, something that is lacking in so many NO Masses. Before I knew about their schism, I attended several of the SSPX Masses with my brother. Their steadfast hold on tradition will preserve the Catholic faith for all those who have never known their Catholic roots. I welcome reconcilliation!

 

[Adonis33]

alfredo123:

It really isn’t a matter of ego, it is a matter of right versus wrong. If a few people say 2+2=4, whereas the other which is in the overwhelming majority and a huge number insist that 2+2=3, it doesn’t really matter that they have the majority, they are still wrong and the small number which insists that 2+2=4 is right. So, I am opposed to reconciliation until the majority admits its errors and agrees to preach the truth. This includes the things I mentioned above, which apparently somone doesn’t like. Well, I didn’t create this mess, I only see it, and I am trying to do the right thing and oppose a reconciliation of the Latin Mass and the latin Gregorian chant with the clown Mass or the “Kum Bah Yah at an outdoor guitar Mass for lesbians”, and the other things I already mentioned.

What you listed are abuses, and not approved by the Vatican. You act as if it’s a common occurence.

What about people saying thing’s like “The NO mass is an abomination” or better yet “We can’t trust the Vatican”. I’ve heard very similar things being said amongst people attending SSPX masses (Most attendees are decent people). I would think saying things like “We can’t trust the Vatican” is as bad - or worse, than the “Kum bay ya” stuff you keep talking about. It sounds like something a protestant would say - but not a Catholic.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Peace be with you!

Everyone just ignore alfredo. I am reporting him to the mods. Argument or even conversation with him is pointless.

As far as the SSPX goes, either you accept the authority of the pope or you don’t. The SSPX, regardless of what they claim, do not accept the authority of the pope. If they did, as they claim they do, they would not comdemn VII or criticize every pope since Pius XII because of it.
If any SSPX people had been to one of the NO Masses my uncle says or one of Holy Rosary’s NO Masses I doubt they would have a problem with it (especially Holy Rosary’s High Mass).
Can anyone who thinks the NO is not reverant tell me that this does not look reverant?
holyrosarypdx.org/consecration/c1.htm
holyrosarypdx.org/photogallery/index.php?twg_album=Christmas+2005%7E%7EMidnight+Mass

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Nohome]

Rand Al'Thor:

Everyone just ignore alfredo. I am reporting him to the mods.

alfredo is just a sock puppet, someone who signs on with a new name to make the same old rants. They do this beacause they have been suspended or they don’t have the courage to maintain one identity in the forums. Either way it isn’t very Christian.

Without love, they become just a clanging gong!

Nohome

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Peace be with you!

Since the SSPX considers the Novus Ordo to be an invalid Mass (not just illicit, as we consider theirs to be), would they be willing to say that when the pope himself says Mass on the High Altar at St. Peter’s or St. John Lateran it is invalid and the consecration does not take place? I think not.

They say that they are loyal to the pope and all Church councils before VII. Papal infallibilty was defined at VI. If they think that we have been led into spiritual error by the post-VII popes, then they cannot believe the dogma of papal infallibilty to be a true dogma. So that means that every pope since VI has also been in error, just as the post-VII popes supposedly have been (no, I’m not calling the SSPX sedevacantists because I know they’re not). St. Pius X was a post-VI pope…

In Christ,
Rand

 

[bekalc]

paramedicgirl:

Reconcilliation between the Vatican and SSPX will be a good thing for Catholicism. The SSPX Mass is very reverent and beautilful, something that is lacking in so many NO Masses. Before I knew about their schism, I attended several of the SSPX Masses with my brother. Their steadfast hold on tradition will preserve the Catholic faith for all those who have never known their Catholic roots. I welcome reconcilliation!

There are NO masses that are reverent. You want to know something though. I was a Protestant going to a Catholic wedding, a Pentecostal. And I was incredibly moved by the words of the litury. I was sitting there crying, saying how Christ died for me, and I sang the words for weeks. A year later I joined RCIA.

If that mass had been in Latin, I don’t think I would have had the same reaction to the mass. If people like latin that’s fine…People worship differently. I think as long as the mass is respectful that’s fine. Besides its not like the mass hasn’t ever changed before. In fact, the mass wasn’t even “originally” in Latin.