Pope denounces ‘restorationist’ orders, takes shot at Medjugorje

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I also am confused over the term ‘rigidity’ that is constantly used by the pope.
I believe he’s talking about the mentality of clergy who lack pastoral compassion because of their rigid adherence to the letter of the law as THEY see it.

Also, those who demand that nuns were full habits as in the past and no females allowed to serve at Mass at any capacity.

Jim
 
Where is the ‘mercy’ for those whose conscience directs them to hold to established truths and to things like the EF, that is, approved long-standing teachings and practices of the Church?

Why are the epithets of ‘rigid’ thrown at them? The ‘psychoanalysis’ and the implication of nothing but ‘evil thoughts’ that must be in their hearts?

Where is the pastoral accompaniment here? The calls for understanding, for ‘meeting them where they are?’

Cue the crickets chirping. The silence is deafening.

I’m all for mercy but it seems that there is a very strong double-standard out there that decrees that mercy is only for those who meet a pre-determined standard. 🤷
The rigidity the Pope is talking about may have to do with SSPX, which still preaches that the Novus Ordo was developed by protestants. We saw it expressed in this very thread.

I have no problem with those who love the EF. I have a problem with those who love the EF, who treat the OF as heretical.

Jim
 
I believe at this time in our history the church needs very much to be restored.

From what I see it is losing ground all over the west and there are people inside the church wishing its demise.

God grant us some restoration.

(P.S. To cut off the usual childish pope baiting questions - of course the pope is not one wishing its demise. May he be strengthened in wisdom to help restore the church and end division and political scandal which threatens the church).
 
Cue the crickets chirping. The silence is deafening.

I’m all for mercy but it seems that there is a very strong double-standard out there that decrees that mercy is only for those who meet a pre-determined standard. 🤷
You ask rhetorical questions, accuse the Pope of a double-standard, that is, being a hypocrite, then cue your own silence. That is the essence our your post.
😦

What has happened to this place?
 
Issa87;

There is no truth whatsoever that protestants had any influence on the doctrines or liturgical changes made at Vatican II.

Jim
Rev. Robert McAfee, in his book “Observer in Rome: A Protestant Report on the Vatican Council” (1964) describes how he, as an invited Protestant “observer”, hesitated about the ethics or appropriateness of trying to influence the decisions of another denomination. He came down on the side that he should in fact try to influence, and lobbied for “liberal” positions, against “conservative” positions.

You can argue that he, and others, were unsuccessful at influencing, or you can argue their influence was beneficial, but that is a different argument. But consider that Rev. Brown (1920 - 2001) had a very strong, influential, career in academia, publishing, Protestant denominations, and interdenominational movements including Catholic liberation theology. He did in fact ****succeed ****in influencing in other places, including Catholic venues, outside Vatican II. The likelihood of him failing at Vatican II is small.
 
Rev. Robert McAfee, in his book “Observer in Rome: A Protestant Report on the Vatican Council” (1964) describes how he, as an invited Protestant “observer”, hesitated about the ethics or appropriateness of trying to influence the decisions of another denomination. He came down on the side that he should in fact try to influence, and lobbied for “liberal” positions, against “conservative” positions.

You can argue that he, and others, were unsuccessful at influencing, or you can argue their influence was beneficial, but that is a different argument. But consider that Rev. Brown (1920 - 2001) had a very strong, influential, career in academia, publishing, Protestant denominations, and interdenominational movements including Catholic liberation theology. He did in fact ****succeed ****in influencing in other places, including Catholic venues, outside Vatican II. The likelihood of him failing at Vatican II is small.
Well then he would be rejecting what Pope Benedict XVI wrote about it.

However, Pope Benedict XVI, or Cardinal Ratzinger at that time, was part of the Vatican II decisions, not just an outside observer and he has refuted the idea that the Novus Ordo was a protestant idea, which the Bishops adopted.

Jim
 
You can argue that he, and others, were unsuccessful at influencing, or you can argue their influence was beneficial, but that is a different argument.
My job is that some guy saying he did something is not worth anything, except maybe picking up women at a bar. Alexander Hislop also wrote a book about the Catholic Church, if you want something new to read about Catholics.
 
Well then he would be rejecting what Pope Benedict XVI wrote about it.

However, Pope Benedict XVI, or Cardinal Ratzinger at that time, was part of the Vatican II decisions, not just an outside observer and he has refuted the idea that the Novus Ordo was a protestant idea, which the Bishops adopted.

Jim
I think there’s a big difference between it being a “Protestant idea” versus only “influenced by Protestants.”
The latter isn’t necessarily wrong.
 
I think there’s a big difference between it being a “Protestant idea” versus only “influenced by Protestants.”
The latter isn’t necessarily wrong.
It’s wrong in that it didn’t happen, per Pope Benedict XVI.

But let me ask, what part of the Novus Ordo derived from Protestant influence ?

Jim
 
The law of Moses was that those caught in adultery, must be stoned to death.

The Pharisees where following the letter of the law.

Jim
Please, do not attempt to reinterpret the adultress story contrary to the Catholic tradition. This is futile and does not make you any honour.
  1. The accusers brought only the woman to Jesus, “forgetting” about her adulterer.
  2. The accusers did not want to take responsibility by following the law of Moses (which was not in wide practice in this respect by then). Rather, they wanted Jesus to take responsibility, by either employing the outdated law or rejecting it expressly.
  3. Jesus DID NOT issue any express judgement on the adulteress. Instead, He offered the accusers to take judgment AND responsibility. He, essentially, asked them: “Do you really think yourself to be pure enough to judge her, here and now?”
  4. Only after all the accusers left did Jesus absolve the adulteress, after inquiring first whether anyone was left to accuse her.
  5. As was mentioned, Jesus commended her not to sin again.
All this shows that Jesus did not break any law. He arranged that the unjust situation might be solved, without breaking a single letter of the Law.
 
Please, do not attempt to reinterpret the adultress story contrary to the Catholic tradition. This is futile and does not make you any honour.
  1. The accusers brought only the woman to Jesus, “forgetting” about her adulterer.
  2. The accusers did not want to take responsibility by following the law of Moses (which was not in wide practice in this respect by then). Rather, they wanted Jesus to take responsibility, by either employing the outdated law or rejecting it expressly.
  3. Jesus DID NOT issue any express judgement on the adulteress. Instead, He offered the accusers to take judgment AND responsibility. He, essentially, asked them: “Do you really think yourself to be pure enough to judge her, here and now?”
  4. Only after all the accusers left did Jesus absolve the adulteress, after inquiring first whether anyone was left to accuse her.
  5. As was mentioned, Jesus commended her not to sin again.
All this shows that Jesus did not break any law. He arranged that the unjust situation might be solved, without breaking a single letter of the Law.
Then ask yourself, why did the Pharisees take the woman caught in adultery to Jesus ?

Under the law, they could’ve had her stoned and no questions asked.

Jim
 
Hence their rigidness against what they saw as a threat to their religious tradition.

Jim
 
Hence their rigidness against what they saw as a threat to their religious tradition.

Jim
Nope. The Pharisees merely sought to discredit Jesus or get Him arrested for murder. Jesus turned the tables back on them.

If you read the Gospel you will see that Jesus’ standard was higher than the Pharisees.
 
Nope. The Pharisees merely sought to discredit Jesus or get Him arrested for murder. Jesus turned the tables back on them.

If you read the Gospel you will see that Jesus’ standard was higher than the Pharisees.
They sought to discredit Jesus as not following the laws of their religion, which could’ve turned the people against him.

They did this with the woman caught in adultery and when they saw the apostles picking grains of wheat to eat on the Sabbath.

Their rigidity is what kept them from seeing who Jesus really was.

People who are rigid in their beliefs often feel threatened. As a result, they react offensively.

Jim
 
Then ask yourself, why did the Pharisees take the woman caught in adultery to Jesus ?

Under the law, they could’ve had her stoned and no questions asked.

Jim
The woman was never in any danger of being stoned. Roman law did not allow Jewish authorities to carry out a death penalty, no matter what their law called for.
 
Then ask yourself, why did the Pharisees take the woman caught in adultery to Jesus ?
As noted above, they could not actually stone her without Roman permission. So she was in no actual danger.

As such, they had a trap for*Him.
  1. He coulddeny the Mosaic law and state that sheshould not be stoned. If so, they had a chargeagainstHim to bring before*a tribunal.
or
  1. He could state that she could be stoned, in which case, they had a charge they could bring before the Roman court, in that He sought to defy Roman law.
Christ did neither. He did not deny the Roman law,and used the principlesof the Pharisees against them. The Pharisees viewed sin in light of the Mosaic law. If you did not break the precepts of the law, you were*literally sinless.

So Christ, in effect, told the Pharisees to go ahead and stone her, but in away that could not be brought before a Roman court. Hencewhy the first Pharisees to leave were the elders, the onewho saw that they had no case againstChrist either way.

And, of course, they could not actually stone her, as they would have been arrested by the Romans themselves.
 
You ask rhetorical questions, accuse the Pope of a double-standard, that is, being a hypocrite, then cue your own silence. That is the essence our your post.
😦

What has happened to this place?
I don’t know about ‘this place’ but **I accused the POPE of nothing. **

There are other people out there, not simply Pope, bishops, or even priests, to whom my so-called ‘rhetorical question’ might apply; why do you assume every word that ‘questions’ or notes disparity of action regarding ‘anybody’ is 'accusing the Pope?"

Sheesh. No offense, because I certainly understand your being sensitive --I myself was a bit sensitive to actual (not simply perceived) criticisms directly quite specifically at Pope St. John Paul II and at Pope Benedict, and I have, although you may not have noted it on other threads defended Pope Francis against real criticism and unfairness. . .but a big problem with ‘this place’ is reflected in many other ‘places’ especially in the last 10 years or so – a difficulty, even among well-educated and well-intentioned people, including you and the vast majority of decent, thoughtful people who post here, of actually ‘discussing’ concepts, ideas, events, etc. in a ‘normal way’, the way in which many of us educated in the 40s, 50s, 60s, and even 70s would have recognized, the classical style of debate, exchanges of information, etc. That apparently is long gone and replaced by hypersensitivity, hypercriticism, chips on the shoulder, arguments full of fallacies especially those marked by ad hominems, emotionalism, false dichotomies, etc. and with people not really ‘talking’ but simply spitting out their own ideas which are cloaked with a kind of ‘personal infallibility’ and aimed to deride, dismantle, and disregard anything that is ‘perceived’ as ‘against’.

I must be careful to remark that **your arguments **are not themselves couched that way. However, what has happened is that, due to the fact that so many people (not just on these fora)do argue this way, one comes into a discussion with a predetermined but mostly unconscious bias. I know that I’m guilty of it at times (probably most times) but I’m on guard against it, because I know that just because there is a high preponderance of armchair pontiffs out there, it does not mean that every poster, or every post, is made from that viewpoint. But that viewpoint colors our instinctive reactions. And that is why, when we are bombarded with a media that for all it bleats, “Shades of grey” is bent on a ‘black and white’ attitude; 'the ‘right way’ is all white, the ‘wrong’ is all black. People are no longer simply mistaken; if they say something ‘wrong’ it is because they are deliberately trying to be wrong, evil, etc.

It is indeed terrible, and I am not sure how long these fora can stand against it.

That, and the upcoming Nineveh 90 challenge (part of which limits ‘recreational internet’ except on Sundays) and which starts tomorrow is why I myself will be visiting only occasionally on Sundays until May 13. I can only hope that with time and prayer the prevailing attitude of very, very nasty internecine warfare which is all too prevalent here will have somewhat abated.
 
I don’t know about ‘this place’ but **I accused the POPE of nothing. **
Then who, on this thread about papal statements, had a double-standard, as in,

“I’m all for mercy but it seems that there is a very strong double-standard out there that decrees that mercy is only for those who meet a pre-determined standard?”

If you meant someone else, the I do apologize, but the context is at best confusing.
 
The woman was never in any danger of being stoned. Roman law did not allow Jewish authorities to carry out a death penalty, no matter what their law called for.
Really ?

Explain the stoning of St Stephen.

Jim
 
The woman was never in any danger of being stoned. Roman law did not allow Jewish authorities to carry out a death penalty, no matter what their law called for.
That is not the case. We know from Josephus and other sources that the Jewish authorities could not carry out a death penalty on a Roman Citizen, but the Roman Governors allowed the Jewish authorities to carry out stoning and other punishments for religious violations.
 
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