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AlNg
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The 60’s made me do it? What happened to the Catholic teaching on free will?
Pope Emeritus Benedict - The Church and the Scandal of Sexual Abuse
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I_trust
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He does not “blame it” on the 60s.
He sets the historical context of the revolutionary upheaval of the 60s to help the reader understand the terible failings of many Catholic theologians, Bishops and Priests who compromized/acquiesced to the prevailing evil of sexual promiscuity and contraception. They abandoned the truth.
The solution does not lie in changing structures but in a renewed fidelity to truth as revield by the Truth himself, and his church’s teaching.
He sets the historical context of the revolutionary upheaval of the 60s to help the reader understand the terible failings of many Catholic theologians, Bishops and Priests who compromized/acquiesced to the prevailing evil of sexual promiscuity and contraception. They abandoned the truth.
The solution does not lie in changing structures but in a renewed fidelity to truth as revield by the Truth himself, and his church’s teaching.
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TMC
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OK, that falls squarely within my option number one - despite decades of evidence, those in a position to do something about it did not know more. How could any reasonable, rational person not believe the thousands of well documented abuse cases? When parishes were paying hundreds of millions of dollars to pay off the victims? When bishops were shuffling predatory priests around? And with what we now know about Marcial Maciel? To the extent Church leadership ignored or failed to look into these facts, why would they do that?
What do the Soviets have to do with anything? Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever.
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CatholicSooner
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Is your faith in man or God?
And it is not the Church heirachy imposing their views on us…it is God’s view. And they aren’t imposing anything. You are free to do what you want
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CatholicSooner
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Anyone ever looked up Alfred Kinsey and how detrimental his thinking and experiments were to America?
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OraLabora
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In Christ.
That it is God’s view, is a matter of faith in the power of binding and loosing.
That’s where I’ve lost my faith, the ability of the Church princes to not only properly discern the Truth, but to equally apply it to themselves, on matters of sexuality.
Coverups, scandals, systematic abuse in Residential schools, gay-bashing while engaging in gay sex themselves… point to a failure of embracing the values they purport to have discerned and propose to us.
Do I still believe in Christ? Yes. Will I become Protestant? No. But there are plenty of places where I once fully embraced the Church’s teaching on sexuality, that I do question. I won’t get into an argument over this though. It is something for me to work out with my spiritual director and over which I wrestle with my conscience.
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Hoosier-Daddy
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I guess the question for some would be “was there a sexual revolution” did the sixties happen or not?
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OraLabora
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I think the 60s just brought out into the open what was already happening behind closed doors. Gay men went to bathhouses behind the backs of their wives, for instance. I’m not sure this was any better than being openly gay. Adultery has always been with us. So has rampant fornication. The Victorian era was famous for it. Winston Churchill’s father died from complications of syphilis!
The pill may have made things easier, but condoms are not a new invention…
The pill may have made things easier, but condoms are not a new invention…
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CatholicSooner
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I guess before we go further…what teaching are you specifically saying the Church is discerning the truth on? B/c the Bible is pretty clear on what is OK and what isn’t.CatholicSooner:
In Christ.
That it is God’s view, is a matter of faith in the power of binding and loosing.
That’s where I’ve lost my faith, the ability of the Church princes to not only properly discern the Truth, but to equally apply it to themselves, on matters of sexuality.
Coverups, scandals, systematic abuse in Residential schools, gay-bashing while engaging in gay sex themselves… point to a failure of embracing the values they purport to have discerned and propose to us.
Do I still believe in Christ? Yes. Will I become Protestant? No. But there are plenty of places where I once fully embraced the Church’s teaching on sexuality, that I do question. I won’t get into an argument over this though. It is something for me to work out with my spiritual director and over which I wrestle with my conscience.
Gay bashing? Can you expound on that as well? I’ve been Catholic my whole life and have never heard of the Church bashing gays.
No need to get in an argument but what issues on sexuality do you have in regards to church teaching?
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OraLabora
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The Church’s views on sexuality are essentially St. Thomas of Aquinas’s theory of Natural Law.
Cardinal O’Brien. Very conservative, very anti-gay. Turns out he was abusing his own seminarians…
I’d really rather not discuss it. It will cause the thread to go off the rails, plus far be it from me to lead anyone astray. It suffices to say that I have grave issues of conscience with several of her teachings on human sexuality. Or as one monk I know put it, “it’s not a sexuality designed for humans, it is a sexuality designed for angels”.
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13pollitos
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After the last several years, I truly hope and pray that many of the things we have seen and learned about/from the hierarchy, that a great deal is not truly God’s view.
My faith in God (the Blessed Trinity) is very strong. My faith in the hierarchy (the Church) may never recover. It has been crushed and trampled on in some very personal ways over the last several years, not just the public scandals. If you statement is true (it’s God’s view), I need to do some major discerning.
I am always happy to hear others that can separate the man from the “man of God” but it is increasingly difficult for me. I follow the historic teachings of the Church and hold them close to me, but as an institution my faith is gone
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CatholicSooner
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Are you by chance confusing saying homosexual acts are wrong with gay bashing?CatholicSooner:
The Church’s views on sexuality are essentially St. Thomas of Aquinas’s theory of Natural Law.
Cardinal O’Brien. Very conservative, very anti-gay. Turns out he was abusing his own seminarians…
I’d really rather not discuss it. It will cause the thread to go off the rails, plus far be it from me to lead anyone astray. It suffices to say that I have grave issues of conscience with several of her teachings on human sexuality. Or as one monk I know put it, “it’s not a sexuality designed for humans, it is a sexuality designed for angels”.
Can you point to more general issues besides just saying Aquinas’ teaching? That is pretty vague.
I could make some guesses based on your resopnses but would rather not.
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CatholicSooner
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You guys are confusing God’s will and human will.CatholicSooner:
After the last several years, I truly hope and pray that many of the things we have seen and learned about/from the hierarchy, that a great deal is not truly God’s view.
My faith in God (the Blessed Trinity) is very strong. My faith in the hierarchy (the Church) may never recover. It has been crushed and trampled on in some very personal ways over the last several years, not just the public scandals. If you statement is true (it’s God’s view), I need to do some major discerning.
I am always happy to hear others that can separate the man from the “man of God” but it is increasingly difficult for me. I follow the historic teachings of the Church and hold them close to me, but as an institution my faith is gone
What the church is doing should not make you lose faith in God or the Church.
You can lose faith in man, but we should never put our faith in man.
The Church’s teaching is sound and from God. That doesn’t mean the Church always lives by what it teaches.
So again, putting your faith in man will always leave you unfulfilled.
So again, what teachings of the Church in regard to sexuality do you have issues with?
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OraLabora
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No, I’m saying that teaching it while doing the opposite is wrong. Saying something is wrong and doing it yourself is hypocrisy. So either it isn’t wrong because a prince of the Church is doing it, and by saying it is you are gay-bashing. Or it is wrong, and you live by what you teach in which cas you are at least consistent and a good example for others to follow. Saying it’s wrong and doing it anyway, in a layman proves he’s a sinner. Saying it’s wrong and doing anyway, in a Cardinal, is sowing confusion and leading the People of God astray. It’s doubly damnable.
Thank you I appreciate it, as I mentioned I’d rather not discuss that issue for various reasons, one of which is not wanting to lead anyone astray,
I don’t. And I maintain that some of the Church’s teaching on sexuality is in fact, man’s will and not God’s will, or at least man’s misinterpretation of God’s will.
And again I will not discuss it here. It’s not relevant to the argument.
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CatholicSooner
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I’m not sure how it isn’t relevant to the argument. You have said you have issues with the Church’s teaching on sexuality and that it is man’s will not God’s, but you won’t say what they are.
I’m pushing so much b/c you are saying you are losing your faith in the church b/c of it’s teaching on sexuality. That’s a pretty big statement. Maybe you don’t completely understand the teaching or there is a misunderstanding? Or maybe it isn’t that you are losing faith b/c of the Church’s TEACHING but b/c of the Church’s hypocrisy. That is completely different.
I’m pushing so much b/c you are saying you are losing your faith in the church b/c of it’s teaching on sexuality. That’s a pretty big statement. Maybe you don’t completely understand the teaching or there is a misunderstanding? Or maybe it isn’t that you are losing faith b/c of the Church’s TEACHING but b/c of the Church’s hypocrisy. That is completely different.
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OraLabora
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Oh I understand it perfectly, was once a great defender of the Natural Law, Humanae Vitae, Theology of the Body, the whole works.
You can PM me if you want, but I won’t get into it here.
You can PM me if you want, but I won’t get into it here.
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13pollitos
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Why on earth should what the Church is doing not make anyone lose faith (aka trust) in the Church? And when you have stated that “ …it is God’s views” as opposed to the hierarchy’s views, where does that lead?
I have not lost faith in God. I already said that. I just wish I could say the same about the hierarchy. I no longer believe they are teaching God’s views but their own, and they are serving their own agenda.
No amount of attempting to explain has been helpful, so I respectfully simply ask for prayer. Please pray for me on this journey of discernment. I will pray for everyone here as well.
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13pollitos
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I didn’t state I have issues with church teachings on sexuality. I haven’t listed what my issues are specifically at all
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OraLabora
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Your statement resonates with me and pretty much conforms to my thoughts on the matter. And I know I am not alone. I know very very many once devout Catholics who bought the teachings lock, stock and barrel who are now faced with the same discernment you and I have.
And I think it’s inevitable since the lens for discerning God’s will has been very fallible human eyes. The Church has micromanaged sex down to such absurdities of having to have sex with a perforated condom simply to obtain a semen sample for a fertility test. That’s just an example off the top of my head.
I agree on prayer as the only solution at the moment. For me, perseverance in prayer has kept me in the Church when I just want to retch at some of the things that have come to light in recent years.
And I think it’s inevitable since the lens for discerning God’s will has been very fallible human eyes. The Church has micromanaged sex down to such absurdities of having to have sex with a perforated condom simply to obtain a semen sample for a fertility test. That’s just an example off the top of my head.
I agree on prayer as the only solution at the moment. For me, perseverance in prayer has kept me in the Church when I just want to retch at some of the things that have come to light in recent years.
Read this good deacon’s testimony:
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CatholicSooner
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No offense, but if you guys can’t even bring up the issues you have…why are you saying you have issues at all with the teaching?
It is at the point of being uncharitable with my replies because I can’t fathom what iss their is with theology of the body and humane vitae so I will just pray for you two like you have asked
It is at the point of being uncharitable with my replies because I can’t fathom what iss their is with theology of the body and humane vitae so I will just pray for you two like you have asked
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