Pope emphasizes need for reverence in liturgy, at meeting with priests of Rome [CC]

[ProVobis]

Occasionally, I attend my wife’s Anglican service at the smaller of the two towns, and it’s mayhem before their service. People talking loudly, kids, etc. etc. No quiet to pray whatsoever.

I attended a Lutheran service for my niece a couple of years ago. No talking whatsoever. That had been done outside. And the service, almost identical to an English Mass, was about as reverent as it could be, considering.

 

[pnewton]

Reverence is not adherence to the rules and reverence is not quiet. A house asleep is quiet, but not reverent. The Holy Father said being attentive only to the rules leaves one incapable of wonder However, reverence, as it expresses awe, is still a sense of “hushness”. If you have every spent much time in the Praise and Worship world, there is a palatable change in the volume when praise is replaced by worship. And without guidelines to keep Mass real (that is, valid), there is no cause for awe.

I am glad the Holy Father gave the two extremes and emphasized the need goal, not the means. Bells, incense, music and silence, are tools to an end. The application of these tools vary from person to person and place to place. I am not a bells person, but if that noise draws the focus of most to the altar, then they serve to enhance reverence. Silence is a little trickier. Silence in Mass is loud. The sudden cessation of all sound to make room for meditation for me is the best thing to increase reverence. But even then, too much will leave room for distraction as the human mind wanders from the Sanctuary back into the world.

 

[OraLabora]

Back in 2010 I was at a meeting at the abbey of Montserrat in Spain, near Barcelona (the meeting was to plan the next World Oblate’s Congress which took place in 2013).

I wondered where those poor monks found the serenity needed to be a Benedictine monk. In addition to being responsible for a world-famous children’s choir, the abbey is a historic landmark and is responsible for the Black Madonna (one of the few black statues of the Virgin Mary; sidebar, it wasn’t always black, but the resins in the varnish blackened with time due to smoke, oxidation, etc.). It’s a major tourist attraction and tourists are always parading through, all day long even during Mass and the Offices, to see the Black Madonna.

One day the abbot invited the delegates to our meeting for a tour of the cloister. Myself and another oblate had an “aha!” moment the instant we walked through the door separating the cloister from the world. A palpable sense of silence and serenity came down like a pall. That was where the monks “recharged” their spiritual batteries and managed to survive being like fish in an aquarium when in their church.

I think creating that kind of climate is impossible if:

-We focus continually on observing rules and rubrics; we replace that sense of serenity with a sense of anxiety, always looking to see for “abuses”.

-We throw out the baby with the bathwater and have something that no longer resembles liturgy; that also creates a sense of anxiety as people feel “lost”

I come back to my wife’s Anglican parish. Her previous pastor was quite conservative and liked liturgy. When I attended their service, it was all familiar enough to me that I had a sense of ecumenical communion with them. Her new pastor is a hard-core Evangelical; even though he’s likeable and preaches good sermons, the “liturgy” such as it is, is all over the map, is pretty much his own invention, and is unrecognizable (to me). I always feel a bit lost in that service, which increases anxiety and detracts from my ability to focus on prayer and fraternal communion. Some would argue that this is my problem, not the pastor’s, but I think the clergy do have a duty to keep the Mass a place of warm familiarity for those of us who get disturbed in unfamiliar surroundings…

 

[onenow1]

I don’t believe the Vatican ever called for their removal.

This is true ! Pope Benedict had a kneeler for communicants; maybe a little hint ?

God Bless

 

[ProVobis]

I am glad the Holy Father gave the two extremes and emphasized the need goal, not the means. Bells, incense, music and silence, are tools to an end. The application of these tools vary from person to person and place to place. I am not a bells person, but if that noise draws the focus of most to the altar, then they serve to enhance reverence. Silence is a little trickier. Silence in Mass is loud. The sudden cessation of all sound to make room for meditation for me is the best thing to increase reverence. But even then, too much will leave room for distraction as the human mind wanders from the Sanctuary back into the world.

Actually Trent referred to it as “submissa voce” or low voice. Silence is what is supposedly achieved when you do Adoration and granted, much can be introduced into a wandering human mind during that time.

Proper meditation, on the other hand, something I think Eastern cultures know more about, (I learned this in TM), takes into account outside noise and learns to deal with it. Of course, this is much harder to accomplish with amplifiers and talking in the pews.

 

[Pulvis]

50 years of liturgical experimentation has left quite a mess of the Universal Church and Her Liturgy. I used to travel alot, and have attended Mass across the country. I can count on one hand, with fingers to spare, how many Masses were exactly as the rubrics require. It would seem that every Priest had his own way of adlibing. I guess I am just old, but I fail to see where having definitive rubrics, and every Mass the same is a bad thing.

 

[OraLabora]

50 years of liturgical experimentation has left quite a mess of the Universal Church and Her Liturgy. I used to travel alot, and have attended Mass across the country. I can count on one hand, with fingers to spare, how many Masses were exactly as the rubrics require. It would seem that every Priest had his own way of adlibing. I guess I am just old, but I fail to see where having definitive rubrics, and every Mass the same is a bad thing.

If they’re disobedient now, can we be sure that more restrictive rubrics would make them any less disobedient? I can’t imagine.

I don’t think “policing” is the answer either.

Perhaps seminarians should spend some time as part of their formation, in a monastery, learning the virtues of obedience, and at the same time more instruction in the liturgy (Benedictines in particular make liturgy an important part of their charism).

It’s not as far-fetched as it seems. Last November I spent a week at the monastery of S. Anselmo, in Rome, on an oblate project. They are neighbours of the HQ of the Nights of Malta. A couple of lay Nights were spending a couple of weeks at S. Anselmo because the Nights wanted to perfect their understanding of obedience.

Having young seminarians rotate through an abbey would also help with the monastery’s daily tasks; they are generally aging communities and would appreciate the able-bodied help; through their service they would also learn obedience.

 

[pnewton]

50 years of liturgical experimentation has left quite a mess of the Universal Church and Her Liturgy. I used to travel alot, and have attended Mass across the country. I can count on one hand, with fingers to spare, how many Masses were exactly as the rubrics require. It would seem that every Priest had his own way of adlibing. I guess I am just old, but I fail to see where having definitive rubrics, and every Mass the same is a bad thing.

*Exactly *as the rubric require??? If you read what the Holy Father said such an exacting focus on rubrics is one extreme that detracts from reverence. The point is that Mass needs to be more reverent, not more exact.

“I was struck by the idea that he emphasized: how the priest who celebrates the Liturgy in an automated way, attentive only to the rules, is not capable of wonder - but neither is the priest who celebrates in a sloppy manner.” - Pope Francis

 

[Brendan]

*Exactly *as the rubric require??? If you read what the Holy Father said such an exacting focus on rubrics is one extreme that detracts from reverence. The point is that Mass needs to be more reverent, not more exact.

“I was struck by the idea that he emphasized: how the priest who celebrates the Liturgy in an automated way, attentive only to the rules, is not capable of wonder - but neither is the priest who celebrates in a sloppy manner.” - Pope Francis

I think you did not quite ‘get’ what Pulvis was stating, nor what Pope Francis was stating.

Note that Pulvis never asked for a priest that was incapable of wonder, or that focused ONLY on the rules.

And THAT is what Pope Francis is speaking against. The Pope never stated that a liturgy that is done exactly to the rubrics is in any way in error. Only if the priest who does so is attentive ONLY to the rules.

The priest is to focus on God, but that does not lessen the obligation to obey the rules of the Liturgy. The Pope never even stated that the priest cannot devote attention to following the rules, but it cannot be his singular focus.

In addition, the Pope indicated that the primary fault was conducting the liturgy in an ‘automated’ way.

This could be true for a priest who has his own set of rules, ones contrary to the rubrics.

So no, the Pope did not speak in a way contrary to Pulvis’ statement

 

[pnewton]

I think you did not quite ‘get’ what Pulvis was stating, nor what Pope Francis was stating.

Maybe not. However, I also have been at many Masses across the country and never noticed a significant deviation from rubrics. If you were to ask me if everyone was exactly according to the rubrics, I could not tell you. What I can say is that a razor sharp focus on rubrics to the point that one can find something a little off in almost every Mass does make it hard to be awed by God, that is, find reverence. One who goes to Mass to observe the rubrics and note deficiencies is the lay equivalent of the priest that the Holy Father described.

Can a person do both, be totally focused on Christ and totally alert for the slightest deviation from what they believe the rubrics to be? Not as I see it. The extent to which we focus on one thing draws our focus from another. The idea that one can ever find a Mass that is totally in accord with what they believe the rubrics to be speaks more about that person than it does the state of the liturgy, again, as I see it.

 

[Brendan]

The extent to which we focus on one thing draws our focus from another. .

I would disagree with that statement. We, as the laity, for example, should be focusing on our responses at Mass and what is happening at the altar.

Those are our ‘rubics’, and having a focus, for example, on the words of the Creed when we are reciting them, or focusing on the words of the pentintial rite, and the significance of the striking of our breasts, would hardly be taking our attention away from God.

Likewise with the rubrics of the priest, he can most certainly focus on what he is being asked to by the Church. In fact, Pope Francis is calling priest to do just that, note the reference against doing the actions in an automated way, as if it becomes rout actions. So a focus on what they are supposed to be doing is a key part of reverence, per the very quote that you provided.

 

[pnewton]

Those are our ‘rubics’, and having a focus, for example, on the words of the Creed when we are reciting them, or focusing on the words of the pentintial rite, and the significance of the striking of our breasts, would hardly be taking our attention away from God.

Likewise with the rubrics of the priest, he can most certainly focus on what he is being asked to by the Church. In fact, Pope Francis is calling priest to do just that, note the reference against doing the actions in an automated way, as if it becomes rout actions. So a focus on what they are supposed to be doing is a key part of reverence, per the very quote that you provided.

That makes sense, the way you put it, because the rubrics one is attentive to is the ones that apply to oneself, as opposed to making sure everyone else at Mass is doing what they are supposed to. You are speaking of doing the right personally. I was referring to the finding of wrong in what others are doing less than exact (in our way of thinking).

 

[ProVobis]

In fact, Pope Francis is calling priest to do just that,

Isn’t he calling the congregation to be more reverent as well, holding the noise level down before and after Mass, etc.? As the ones who run the parishes as well? The priest does not always have the control as he may be visiting or new.

 

[twf]

External signs of reverence vary widely by parish and diocese. My home archdiocese is quite conservative in this regard. At the cathedral (Holy Rosary Cathedral in Vancouver) many parts of the mass are chanted, the faithful receive kneeling at the altar rail, incense is used regularly, EMHCs are rarely used (the 7 priests in residence come in during each mass to help out), traditional music accompanied by the pipe organ is primarily used, etc. There are 7 masses on Sunday and 4 each day of the week…all very well attended. There are always “fruits” in terms of vocations and converts throughout the archdiocese year after year. Vancouver has been blessed with very solid Archbishops.

 

[pnewton]

Isn’t he calling the congregation to be more reverent as well, holding the noise level down before and after Mass, etc.? As the ones who run the parishes as well? The priest does not always have the control as he may be visiting or new.

I would think that the Holy Father would agree with that, but in the context of this story specifically, he was speaking to priests. Also the only actual quote we have. is:

“I was struck by the idea that he emphasized: how the priest who celebrates the Liturgy in an automated way, attentive only to the rules, is not capable of wonder - but neither is the priest who celebrates in a sloppy manner.”

 

[ProVobis]

I would think that the Holy Father would agree with that, but in the context of this story specifically, he was speaking to priests. Also the only actual quote we have. is:

“I was struck by the idea that he emphasized: how the priest who celebrates the Liturgy in an automated way, attentive only to the rules, is not capable of wonder - but neither is the priest who celebrates in a sloppy manner.”

Capable of wonder? I would agree that the more mystery he can create the more interesting the Mass can become. That’s quite a challenge given the IGMR/GIRM IMO.

In the Spanish Masses close to me, sometimes the Mass starts 20 minutes late, there is about 5 minutes of adlibbing, the Gloria is different than the text, sometimes there are baptisms which eat into the Creed and the Prayers, so I don’t know much further they can deviate from the rules.

About rules, the way I look at it is this: You can play baseball without the foul line markings, but sooner or later, you’ll wish they would be there.

 

[KSU]

External signs of reverence vary widely by parish and diocese. My home archdiocese is quite conservative in this regard. At the cathedral (Holy Rosary Cathedral in Vancouver) many parts of the mass are chanted, the faithful receive kneeling at the altar rail, incense is used regularly, EMHCs are rarely used (the 7 priests in residence come in during each mass to help out), traditional music accompanied by the pipe organ is primarily used, etc. There are 7 masses on Sunday and 4 each day of the week…all very well attended. There are always “fruits” in terms of vocations and converts throughout the archdiocese year after year. Vancouver has been blessed with very solid Archbishops.

That made my day. I wasn’t aware that there was such an archdiocese in Canada.

No offense intended, it’s just that I hear about only the opposite occurances/situations in Canada.

 

[OraLabora]

That made my day. I wasn’t aware that there was such an archdiocese in Canada.

No offense intended, it’s just that I hear about only the opposite occurances/situations in Canada.

There’s also the Benedictines in Canada.

At the local abby of which I’m an oblate:

-OF Mass in Gregorian chant every day, using the Latin/Greek Gregorian propers and ordinary, the rest including the readings in French plainchant
-Incense when appropriate
-Pipe organ only (except silent in Advent and Lent except for Gaudete and Laetare Sundays)
-Lauds and Vespers in Latin Gregorian chant
-Minor hours with Latin hymn in Gregorian chant, the rest French recto-tono
-Compline in French plainchant with Latin Gregorian hymn, responsory and seasonal antiphon to the BVM (solemn tone on Sundays and solemnities)
-Entire psalter prayed in one week.

At the Benedictine women on the outskirts of Montreal:

-Traditional Benedictine psalter
-OF Mass entirely in Latin, with Gregorian chant.

Neighbouring archdiocese: I’m member of a small men’s schola that sings Gregorian chant at Parish masses once a month. We also do solemn Vespers in Advent and Lent, Lauds on Holy Saturday (all at the cathedral), and funerals, concerts, parish anniversaries, etc., on demand.

There are also very beautiful Masses in sacred polyphony in Montreal (Mary Queen of the World Cathedral, St. Joseph’s Oratory and Notre-Dame Basilica come to mind).

 

[KSU]

There’s also the Benedictines in Canada.

At the local abby of which I’m an oblate:

-OF Mass in Gregorian chant every day, using the Latin/Greek Gregorian propers and ordinary, the rest including the readings in French plainchant
-Incense when appropriate
-Pipe organ only (except silent in Advent and Lent except for Gaudete and Laetare Sundays)
-Lauds and Vespers in Latin Gregorian chant
-Minor hours with Latin hymn in Gregorian chant, the rest French recto-tono
-Compline in French plainchant with Latin Gregorian hymn, responsory and seasonal antiphon to the BVM (solemn tone on Sundays and solemnities)
-Entire psalter prayed in one week.

At the Benedictine women on the outskirts of Montreal:

-Traditional Benedictine psalter
-OF Mass entirely in Latin, with Gregorian chant.

Neighbouring archdiocese: I’m member of a small men’s schola that sings Gregorian chant at Parish masses once a month. We also do solemn Vespers in Advent and Lent, Lauds on Holy Saturday (all at the cathedral), and funerals, concerts, parish anniversaries, etc., on demand.

There are also very beautiful Masses in sacred polyphony in Montreal (Mary Queen of the World Cathedral, St. Joseph’s Oratory and Notre-Dame Basilica come to mind).

Two days in a row–good news out of Canada that beauty and reverance exists and is prospering.