POPE Equates Atheism and Naziism

[Timothy17]

i have a huge problem with these comments by the pope. im an atheist, and last time i checked i dont murder innocent people. people have a misconception that because we dont believe in God, we have no morals. this is actually the natural ignorance of people who view those of different beliefs as bad people. and i have to say im sickened by aramis actually agreeing with the popes outlandish insinuations. the actions of the nazis had very little to do with their faith. they were twisted, sick individuals, under the influence of a deeply disturbed human being. it is in no way acceptable to group atheism together with nazism. that would be like me stating that ALL priests are paedophiles due to the actions of a few. im well aware that they are not. so to those who actually agree with the pope, get your head checked. atheists are good people

My friend,

You are quite right - but the context is atheistic philosophy, not atheistic individuals. The Pope is warning that atheistic philosophies have had a very bad track-record during the 20th century, specifically materialism, which places an almost obsessive importance on economics, where economics determines policy, which is basically to say that goods or money become the determining factors of life in society, apart from other considerations.

Examples of materialistic philosophies would be modern neo-liberalism, and - thankfully - the now defunct communism of the 20th century. When atheistic philosophies prevail or become the determining factors of life and society, the Pope has every right to ask world leaders to humble themselves and recall the sad history of what happens when something other than morality becomes the determining factor in life. Though materialism is not by any means synonymous with Naziism, it does share a dangerous commonality ; namely, the placing of something other than morality (right and wrong, justice, etc.) as the determining factor in national policy.

If Abraham Lincoln, for example, determined the national good purely in economic terms, he may have concluded that a war would be disastrous to prosperity, and the economic value in emancipating currently “productive” slaves as dubious. Thankfully, honest Abe saw the underlying contradiction and fundamental error in morality that slavery embodied, and determined - based on moral reasons - that slavery was unacceptable. The Brittish, however, that ever-commercial empire (at the time), decided cotton was more important, and tended to support and favor the South, all other considerations notwithstanding.

Materialism can become extremely hostile to humanity, therefore, as it tends to value the human person in terms of what he or she can do for me ; that is, of what productive, or material value is the person to me. This can engender hostility towards the poor, the unemployed, the disabled, the elderly, the weak, the mentally challenged, etc. Manifestly, we also see materialism doing as we feared it might, which is jeopardizing especially the weakest and most vulnerable persons in society, namely, the unborn. The tendency to view even our own children in purely economic terms manifests society’s obession with materialism, as demonstrated by the fact that the extreme majority of abortions are performed for purely economic, or materialistic, reasons - not due to health considerations, which make up a minority.

Pax,
Tim

 

[Timothy17]

The problem is not the pope is not infallible every time he speaks. The problem is that too many Catholics have erected altars to their own judgment under the guise of critical thinking.

…]

A saint is a man or woman who instead of building an altar to his own judgment and critical thinking, offers himself on the altar of obedience as Christ did.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Very edifying Brother JR. I shall reflect prayerfully on this. Thank-you for the admonishment.

Tim

 

[Lutheranteach]

Well, he would know about at least one of those things.

 

[John_Pascendi]

While I don’t think that the news is really being fair to the Popes actual statement I have to say that I can’t fathom what was going through the heads of the people who helped author or reviewed this statement. I could have told them that the paragraph in question would be latched onto and attacked. Any statement on Nazis, especially in Europe, is taken rather sensitively and the link between Nazism and Atheism isn’t exactly a clear black and white historical fact. Nazis even had a standard issue belt buckle that said something along the lines of “God is with us” in German. And of course it doesn’t help the whole issue that almost everyone knows that the Pope was a part of the Hitler youth, even if it wasn’t a matter of choice.

It doesn’t really seem like the Church has quite grasped how important it is to be careful with individual statements and PR when dealing with the modern Western world. Of course most older politicians don’t seem to be able to figure this out either. Perhaps the Church should consider taking a few of their brighter young western priests and getting them involved in this stuff. I know the Pope’s advisors are traditionally high ranking and older officials, but a young voice here or there might be nice consider the rapid pace at which the world is changing now-a-days.

Oh and you should link the articles you are talking about. I couldn’t find the MSN one, but here is the BBC one that probably says pretty much the same thing. bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515

Yes the Holy father was right on.The National socialist workers party of germany was athiest all the way as are the communist party ,fascist etc…all totalitarian organizations worship their movement nothing else…It was Jesus Himself who declared holding that coin…'give to Ceasar what belongs to him and to God what belongs to him" soon Jesus paid for the unPC statement with His life!.I had the high honor to know Maj.William Simpson,who worked in the Vatican underground during WW2 and he gave me very important information on how these beasts believe in and worship only their movement over all others…thats why 'liquidation ’ is used inside of murder,when an enemy of their pagan movement pays the supreme sacrifice.Notice how more and more in the good ole US of A…worship of nature ,re new age is becoming more and more main stream and taught in public schools. The word ‘nazi’ like nasty,was rarely used until Hitler turned on Stalin in 41,till then they were buddies and started WW2…

 

[Edmundus1581]

He is quite right to do so.

In a beautiful German work, “Downfall [of the 3rd Reich],” which depicts the final days of Hitler in his bunker, the movie brilliantly, purposely and quite subtly omits to mention the word “God” throughout the entire span of this commanding film depicting Hitler’s final days. Strinkingly, the word “God,” is not spoken until after Hitler has killed himself, and then only by some of his assistants and entourage who, now fleeing for their lives and absolutely without any leadership, begin to God-bless and God-speed one another, and ask for God’s help. I said this was brilliant because it calls to mind the fact that God has been utterly missing up until this point, and that up until Hitler’s death, Hitler was virtually the god of the National Socialists,

…

Thanks for that powerful and insightful synopsis, Timothy. I think it is interesting in itself, and very pertinent to understanding Benedict’s point.

 

[reggieM]

…atheists are good people

By the atheistic standards of a purposeless universe, accidental origin of humanity and morality of self-interest – Nazis are good people also.

The Holy Father was pointing out that atheism is a profound evil. It’s actually worse than Nazism which was only a single application of atheistic thought.

Individual atheists may not even be aware of what atheism means, and most, incoherently, take advantage of Christian morality to guide them and determine what is good or bad. Take away religion entirely and live consistent with what atheism tolerates and the Third Reich will seem splendid in comparison.

 

[Aramis]

i have a huge problem with these comments by the pope. im an atheist, and last time i checked i dont murder innocent people. people have a misconception that because we dont believe in God, we have no morals. this is actually the natural ignorance of people who view those of different beliefs as bad people. and i have to say im sickened by aramis actually agreeing with the popes outlandish insinuations. the actions of the nazis had very little to do with their faith. they were twisted, sick individuals, under the influence of a deeply disturbed human being. it is in no way acceptable to group atheism together with nazism. that would be like me stating that ALL priests are paedophiles due to the actions of a few. im well aware that they are not. so to those who actually agree with the pope, get your head checked. atheists are good people

Those states which claim atheism as the state religion (to wit, Soviet Russia and Communist China, the Khmer Rouge, Communist Vietnam) have had a tendency to have been brutally destructive.

Whether atheism is the cause or the symptom is another matter; the comorbidity is noteworthy, tho’.

 

[Adeodatus]

THATS THE PROBLEM!!! It is wrong to group things together which are really so different. I could make an equivocal statement that the Catholic Church is responsible for the destruction of the lives of thousands of innocent children, and for the murder of millions of people.

but this statement would be grouping together facts which have no relevance. the nazis are twisted and sick, the priests who abused children are twisted and sick. Beliefs do not come into this argument. Being atheist has nothing to do with how the nazis acted. priests are supposedly closer to your God and yet they committed such sick crimes (i am referring here to just those who were charged, obviously when i use the term priests i do not mean every priest)

there is a saying that ignorance is bliss. sometimes i feel catholics are the most blissful faith in the world

Fitzy, though the whole inquiry, labored over by clerics for two thousand years, likely bears the stink of Popery (not the same as potpourri), nevertheless I commend to you the science of Logic. We Christians are quite fond of it and I think atheists might benefit from its employment.

The issue at hand is called “implication”. Though he did not speak so broadly, for simplicity’s sake let us say that the Pope went very far and claimed that “All Nazis are atheists.” That bears the form of an implication.

We might cast it thus:
IF n THEN a.
In other words, if it’s a Nazi, then it’s an atheist. To be a Nazi implies being an atheist.
Now, there’s another interesting facet of this: if a person is not an atheist, we can infer that he’s not a Nazi, either. That’s because every Nazi is an atheist… no atheist, no Nazi.

However, and this should tickle you, there is no implication that a given atheist will be a Nazi. You see, we can say “IF a nazi THEN an atheist”, and we can also say “IF NOT an atheist THEN NOT a nazi”; but we cannot say, based upon the claim that all Nazis are atheists, that … “IF an atheist THEN a nazi”… that last one does not follow.

You should check this stuff out and get back to us. If you study Logic for very long, though, you have a good chance of converting to Christianity.

One thing I find interesting is that the Holy Father mentions “atheist extremism” and he gets dogged (by, well, extremists, but that’s another story)… like if you say there’s an extremist who is also an atheist, you have called all atheists “extremists”. But no one ever seems to object when the sweeping distinction between “Islamic extremists” (oh so few and far between) and “ordinary Muslims” is made. Oh, that’s an OK distinction to make. But atheists, no, by definition they are all moderates and to say otherwise is to invite nothing less than fatwa and jihad.

 

[fitzyjr]

Fitzy, though the whole inquiry, labored over by clerics for two thousand years, likely bears the stink of Popery (not the same as potpourri), nevertheless I commend to you the science of Logic. We Christians are quite fond of it and I think atheists might benefit from its employment.

The issue at hand is called “implication”. Though he did not speak so broadly, for simplicity’s sake let us say that the Pope went very far and claimed that “All Nazis are atheists.” That bears the form of an implication.

We might cast it thus:
IF n THEN a.
In other words, if it’s a Nazi, then it’s an atheist. To be a Nazi implies being an atheist.
Now, there’s another interesting facet of this: if a person is not an atheist, we can infer that he’s not a Nazi, either. That’s because every Nazi is an atheist… no atheist, no Nazi.

However, and this should tickle you, there is no implication that a given atheist will be a Nazi. You see, we can say “IF a nazi THEN an atheist”, and we can also say “IF NOT an atheist THEN NOT a nazi”; but we cannot say, based upon the claim that all Nazis are atheists, that … “IF an atheist THEN a nazi”… that last one does not follow.

You should check this stuff out and get back to us. If you study Logic for very long, though, you have a good chance of converting to Christianity.

One thing I find interesting is that the Holy Father mentions “atheist extremism” and he gets dogged (by, well, extremists, but that’s another story)… like if you say there’s an extremist who is also an atheist, you have called all atheists “extremists”. But no one ever seems to object when the sweeping distinction between “Islamic extremists” (oh so few and far between) and “ordinary Muslims” is made. Oh, that’s an OK distinction to make. But atheists, no, by definition they are all moderates and to say otherwise is to invite nothing less than fatwa and jihad.

Logic??? hahaha, thats a good one. a woman who spontaneously became impregnated, a man who can divide seas. oh yeah, real logic there. and a group of paedophiles who tell people what is right and wrong, and then commit what is in my opinion the worst crime you could ever commit. and they get away with it to preserve the “good” name of the church, thats all perfectly logical.

christianity… one womans lie about an affair that got blown hugely out of proportion

 

[JReducation]

Those states which claim atheism as the state religion (to wit, Soviet Russia and Communist China, the Khmer Rouge, Communist Vietnam) have had a tendency to have been brutally destructive.

Whether atheism is the cause or the symptom is another matter; the comorbidity is noteworthy, tho’.

I believe that what the best intentioned atheist may often fail to see is that atheism has no moral authority. Therefore, it cannot make demands based on a moral code of right and wrong, because right and wrong are not absolutes in atheism.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[murphjos]

Logic??? hahaha, thats a good one. a woman who spontaneously became impregnated, a man who can divide seas. oh yeah, real logic there. and a group of paedophiles who tell people what is right and wrong, and then commit what is in my opinion the worst crime you could ever commit. and they get away with it to preserve the “good” name of the church, thats all perfectly logical.

christianity… one womans lie about an affair that got blown hugely out of proportion

If atheism leads a person to such bitterness as this, I am glad the overwhelming majority humans believe in God. Whatever you believe (or refuse to) you should have manners enough to not insult the virgin Mary on a Catholic board.

 

[Adeodatus]

If atheism leads a person to such bitterness as this, I am glad the overwhelming majority humans believe in God. Whatever you believe (or refuse to) you should have manners enough to not insult the virgin Mary on a Catholic board.

I’m afraid his was an all too typical retort. Atheists are not generally interested in a philosophical discussion. They’re interested in a fight to the death.

Perhaps some day we’ll be good enough to oblige them. There is so much loss of faith in our culture. I’ve lost my faith… but not in God. I have faith in God. God is worthy of all the faith I could possibly invest in Him and infinitely more, more than I could ever muster in my miserable imperfection. No, I’ve lost my faith in man. Thus my contempt of overly optimistic political forms.

 

[JReducation]

I’m afraid his was an all too typical retort. Atheists are not generally interested in a philosophical discussion. They’re interested in a fight to the death.

Perhaps some day we’ll be good enough to oblige them. There is so much loss of faith in our culture. I’ve lost my faith… but not in God. I have faith in God. God is worthy of all the faith I could possibly invest in Him and infinitely more, more than I could ever muster in my miserable imperfection. No, I’ve lost my faith in man. Thus my contempt of overly optimistic political forms.

My friend, never allow yourself to lose your faith in man. I always remember something that just slipped out of my mouth one day when I was teaching the novices and after I said it, I realized that it was actually true. “God delights in his creation, because it’s delightful.” Every human being is a victim of and heir to Original Sin. But there are more good and delightful human beings than not. I have found that the most delightful ones whom I have met are the ones that are in the deepest spiritual trouble. When I sit and talk to them, I find such pain, fear and hopelessness under all the nonsense that they present on the surfface. I can see Christ crucified and suffering beneath all of the stuff that people put on to cover it up. They are truly beautiful and waiting to be loved and pulled out of their misery.

I remember being in the missions in South America. A young man invited me to his son’s birthday party. I had never been to his home. I went. It was in a horrible slum. When I arrived, the house, if you can call it that, was a storage room under an old store. It had no windows and only one large room. They had no glasses. The drinking cups were jars that they had saved and washed. They served me the most watered down version of Tang that I had ever drank. They obviously stretched it. The people who came to the party were no regulars at the parish. I doubt that they were regulars at any church. The long and the short of it was that I went back to my community house feeling as if I had been to heaven and back. The poor and the sinner were so generous and so overwhelmingly delightful that I could almost touch Christ there. I have never again doubted man’s innate ability to love. He is disabled in his love, but never hopeless.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[fitzyjr]

If atheism leads a person to such bitterness as this, I am glad the overwhelming majority humans believe in God. Whatever you believe (or refuse to) you should have manners enough to not insult the virgin Mary on a Catholic board.

quite frankly i should have known better. but step into my shoes. people are taking shots at my beliefs because they feel they are entitled to do so on a catholic forum. and after listening to so much illogical rubbish (not everything that was said, but there are those who just wish to slander others beliefs) i lost my cool. of course i should not have lowered myself to the level of those attacking what i believe in by attacking what they believe in. but what is the golden rule of christianity… treat one another as you would like to be treated. well the treatment i have come across has lacked respect quite often. so when i am not shown respect and common decency, how am i expected to show it in return.

so i apologise for my comment. it was a jibe at what i do believe are some of the weaker points of catholcism, but it was not my place to discredit them.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I must say that the tone of this thread has turned quite beautiful, with the last two posts by both Brother JR, and Fitzy!

, Edmundus

 

[reggieM]

…but step into my shoes …

This is a very good admonition. But this might help also – and that is the fact that it is nearly impossible to know what any individual atheist thinks. There is no universal, official set of beliefs that we can refer to. How are we supposed to know what you think?

This is radically different than those who profess Catholicism. You can review our beliefs in the Catechism.

Even when I point out some necessary consequences of atheism, many atheists get quite upset and offended. They’ll say “well, I don’t believe that!”

Ok, but how are we supposed to know if you’re consistent with atheistic thought or not?

Attacks against atheism as a belief system are not attacks against individual atheists.

 

[fitzyjr]

This is a very good admonition. But this might help also – and that is the fact that it is nearly impossible to know what any individual atheist thinks. There is no universal, official set of beliefs that we can refer to. How are we supposed to know what you think?

This is radically different than those who profess Catholicism. You can review our beliefs in the Catechism.

Even when I point out some necessary consequences of atheism, many atheists get quite upset and offended. They’ll say “well, I don’t believe that!”

Ok, but how are we supposed to know if you’re consistent with atheistic thought or not?

Attacks against atheism as a belief system are not attacks against individual atheists.

ah, now that you have brought up this point… i do not personally know one individual who follows the bible to the letter. so obviously by saying that i could just look up the catechism is a basic guideline, but still every catholic is different. many even do not believe in certain stories within the bible.

deuteronomy 13: 6-14. a summary of what is said is if a member of your family worships a different God to you you are supposed to kill them. would you follow this?

 

[fitzyjr]

I must say that the tone of this thread has turned quite beautiful, with the last two posts by both Brother JR, and Fitzy!

, Edmundus

it was a good team effort

 

[reggieM]

…i do not personally know one individual who follows the bible to the letter. so obviously by saying that i could just look up the catechism is a basic guideline, but still every catholic is different. many even do not believe in certain stories within the bible.

deuteronomy 13: 6-14. a summary of what is said is if a member of your family worships a different God to you you are supposed to kill them. would you follow this?

Moral guidelines for Catholics are sometimes very specific and other times general norms that have to be interpreted in light of Scripture and the teaching of the Church. So, we always have to be consistent with the teaching of Christ. That gives us a moral standard.

I think you were correct in your previous post by citing the golden rule of christianity. That’s a general rule, but then we have to apply it with specific actions. This is important because in the end we will all be judged (and held accountable) for what we do – so, we strive to do our best in loving God and loving our neighbor.

Now, this is something anyone can observe and judge to some degree. An atheist, like yourself, can observe if Catholics are living up to the standards as set. If you don’t know the standards, you can find out since there is official teaching.

In the case you mentioned from the Old Testament, remember that the Faith of the Catholic Church teaches that she alone is the true, official inheritor of the Old and New Testaments. As such, the Church has the authority from God to teach us what the Bible means. We are not required, or permitted, to take a “literalist” view of the Bible.

Christ brough “the New Law”, which supercedes the Old Law.

Catholic, for example, are permitted to eat pork, even though the Old Testament law forbade it to the Chosen People during the time of preparation for the coming of the Messiah.

 

[fitzyjr]

Moral guidelines for Catholics are sometimes very specific and other times general norms that have to be interpreted in light of Scripture and the teaching of the Church. So, we always have to be consistent with the teaching of Christ. That gives us a moral standard.

I think you were correct in your previous post by citing the golden rule of christianity. That’s a general rule, but then we have to apply it with specific actions. This is important because in the end we will all be judged (and held accountable) for what we do – so, we strive to do our best in loving God and loving our neighbor.

Now, this is something anyone can observe and judge to some degree. An atheist, like yourself, can observe if Catholics are living up to the standards as set. If you don’t know the standards, you can find out since there is official teaching.

In the case you mentioned from the Old Testament, remember that the Faith of the Catholic Church teaches that she alone is the true, official inheritor of the Old and New Testaments. As such, the Church has the authority from God to teach us what the Bible means. We are not required, or permitted, to take a “literalist” view of the Bible.

Christ brough “the New Law”, which supercedes the Old Law.

Catholic, for example, are permitted to eat pork, even though the Old Testament law forbade it to the Chosen People during the time of preparation for the coming of the Messiah.

what actually is the story with pork. i was a catholic for many years and never actually asked or questioned it. why could it not be eaten?