Pope Examines Why Latin American Catholics Join Evangelical Churches

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What exactly gives you any right to make an all-embracing comment on the interior dispositions of your fellow Catholic brothers and sisters, as if you could read minds and hearts?
My experience of trying to organize get-togethers for people. People just aren’t interested in getting together outside of that 1 hour at Mass each week.

But good job, they managed to give God 1 out of 168 hours that week. I’m sure the husbands and wives or people dating can tell us how well relationships hold together on 1 hour a week.
 
I have yet to observe that those who seek community in a Catholic parish fail to find it. Our experiences differ. I have found that if I want to create community for others, it’s up to me to start it, and to stop whining or feeling resentful that others can’t read my mind that I want it, or can’t read the minds of others who want it. Yes, I think there are a lot of people who keep to themselves (maybe most people do), but should I be the one complaining about that, I have only myself to blame, as I have never been turned away when engaging others. Most people are not self-starters (including in secular settings), and most people are also not that smooth about sincerity and ease of communication with stangers. That doesn’t make them evil people; it makes them typical.

Unusual is the person who can start a conversation effortlessly with a complete stranger so that the stranger actually is drawn to that person and wants to talk. It’s an art, and some people have a gift for that, but it is not that common.

I’ve also found that many people in parishes – priests will say probably most people attending Mass, anyway – are very preoccupied with genuine heartaches or anxieties; very often those loom large and (again) those people don’t reach out because they are in greater need of having others reach out to them. (My point exactly.)

Some of the most frequent Mass attendees are those in deep suffering or crisis. Hmm. I wonder why? I look out at the congregation and I do see a lot of troubled faces among the minority of happier faces. So it’s up to me to approach them; not them to approach me. Also, I think there’s some rash judging going on on this thread. Just because people look as if they “don’t care” does not mean that they don’t. (A) They could be preoccupied or distracted with overwhelming needs of their own. (B) They’re collecting themselves interiorly and they’re praying, seriously. (Wait, what a concept: In front of the Blessed Sacrament? Who knew? 🤷)
I agree with this 100%.
 
Catholicism requires one to reflect on the inner self and change.
Evangelicalism is the complete opposite. If you desire to live a worldly life then Evangelicalism trumps Catholicism. There is no need to change, you are saved. And emotional happiness with happy music substitutes true inner joy and healing.
 
My experience of trying to organize get-togethers for people.
You have finite and limited experience. So I repeat: You’re reported experience gives you zero right to judge universally your Catholic brothers and sisters, which you did in your post atop page, and continue to do.

Further, you’re now judging that their one hour of Mass is the only hour they “give to God.” Good job on your special powers to look inside people’s hearts, not to mention knowing how all those strangers spend the rest of their 167 hours.
 
. That’s why it seems so cold and unfriendly, everyone’s just there to get their sacrament and punch their card.
I don’t know about you, but “getting my sacrament” is paramount to my faith life, and how, human nature being what it is, can we reach our hand across the aisle to embrace our neighbor without the interior (supernatural) love and grace coming from that VERY sacrament???
 
I don’t know about you, but “getting my sacrament” is paramount to my faith life, and how, human nature being what it is, can we reach our hand across the aisle to embrace our neighbor without the interior (supernatural) love and grace coming from that VERY sacrament???
Tigg,

Peace of Christ be with you. I hope all is well.

My personal take is I dont go to mass to socialise however nor do I choose to “ignore”
those around me. Ill say hello to anyone on the way in before I make it to the nave and on the way out when I turn in my missal tell the gentleman have a good week.

My own personal opinion is (and of course I could be wrong) I think we have been hit so hard by tbn, Christian radio. we have Ave Maria radio but you can only pick it up either by sat radio or certain cities offer on a limited range. I live in S Ft Worth and can only pick it up in downtown once I hit the highway I cant pick it up any more. Charismatic preachers, co workers talking about their fellowship.

Where fellowship as the prots call it or socialisation is nice and any catholic church that Ive ever been to have offerd prayer groups and adult/teen bible study. I think we need to keep our Catholic identity (we dont worship the way they do) Lex orandi lex credendi How you pray is how you believe.

You have probably noticed we have intergrated several protestant forms of worship singing protestant hyms i.e. Amazing Grace, several parishes at the start of mass ask you to “meet and greet” your nieghbors.

I will try and tie this into what Max Webber believed He believed in three types of authority
  1. **Traditional authority **is rooted in history and tradition. This should be the church in my opinion.
These two seem to fit protestant churches
2. Charismatic authority comes from the personality of the leader.
3. **Legal-rational authority **is empowered by a formalistic belief in the content of the law (legal) or natural law (rationality). Obedience is not given to a specific individual leader - whether traditional or charismatic - but a set of uniform principles.

The three authority types may be re-enforced by traits that differentiate them from other types. Traditional authority is impersonal (unlike charisma) and non-rational (unlike legal-rational). Charismatic authority is dynamic (unlike tradition) and non-rational (again, unlike legal-rational). Finally, legal-rational authority is dynamic (unlike tradition) and impersonal (unlike charisma). Conversely, Blau means to say that traditional is un-dynamic, charisma is personal, and legal-rational is rational. The likelihood of retaining a particular type of authority may depend on the ability of that authority system to retain the traits that make it unique and reject the traits that make it more conducive to another authority type.

I humbly believe this is the transition of what we see in the American church today.

To elaborate, particular authority types can lose their power to - and thus transition into - other types by some of the following ways. Revolutionary ideals can be advocated by a charismatic leader or the rational pursuit of ends via abstract formal principles can both weaken traditional authority

Its actually about goverment leadership but I think it fits niceley in church authority aswell.
 
Good job on your special powers to look inside people’s hearts, not to mention knowing how all those strangers spend the rest of their 167 hours.
Well, they don’t seem to be spending it getting together with their fellow Catholics as a community.
I don’t know about you, but “getting my sacrament” is paramount to my faith life, and how, human nature being what it is, can we reach our hand across the aisle to embrace our neighbor without the interior (supernatural) love and grace coming from that VERY sacrament???
What I was saying though is that there’s too many people who get Sacraments and that’s it. They don’t want to talk to their neighbour, they just want to get in-and-out (observe the number of people who leave right after communion). They just want to get (back) to their Sunday NFL viewing.
I will try and tie this into what Max Webber believed He believed in three types of authority
  1. **Traditional authority **is rooted in history and tradition. This should be the church in my opinion.
These two seem to fit protestant churches
2. Charismatic authority comes from the personality of the leader.
3. **Legal-rational authority **is empowered by a formalistic belief in the content of the law (legal) or natural law (rationality). Obedience is not given to a specific individual leader - whether traditional or charismatic - but a set of uniform principles.

The three authority types may be re-enforced by traits that differentiate them from other types. Traditional authority is impersonal (unlike charisma) and non-rational (unlike legal-rational). Charismatic authority is dynamic (unlike tradition) and non-rational (again, unlike legal-rational). Finally, legal-rational authority is dynamic (unlike tradition) and impersonal (unlike charisma). Conversely, Blau means to say that traditional is un-dynamic, charisma is personal, and legal-rational is rational. The likelihood of retaining a particular type of authority may depend on the ability of that authority system to retain the traits that make it unique and reject the traits that make it more conducive to another authority type.
Uh, Catholicism is based on Natural Law. The philosophy/theology of Thomas Aquinas is based on Natural Law with the highest good being love of God.

Furthermore, Catholicism has a strong rational tradition; it’s why we do so much philosophy. And obedience in the Catholic tradition is given to a set of uniform principles and our leadership and governance is based on those principles.

Furthermore, Catholicism does have a charismatic authority (in your definition) in the person of Jesus Christ. Our faith is not a dead faith but a living one based on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and His bride the Church. We not called to love principles, but to love God with all our hearts and all our souls and all our minds and all our strengths (Mark 12:30), and to love our neighbours as ourselves (31). Our faith is intimately based on relationships.
 
Well, they don’t seem to be spending it getting together with their fellow Catholics as a community.

What I was saying though is that there’s too many people who get Sacraments and that’s it. They don’t want to talk to their neighbour, they just want to get in-and-out (observe the number of people who leave right after communion). They just want to get (back) to their Sunday NFL viewing.

Uh, Catholicism is based on Natural Law. The philosophy/theology of Thomas Aquinas is based on Natural Law with the highest good being love of God.

Furthermore, Catholicism has a strong rational tradition; it’s why we do so much philosophy. And obedience in the Catholic tradition is given to a set of uniform principles and our leadership and governance is based on those principles.

Furthermore, Catholicism does have a charismatic authority (in your definition) in the person of Jesus Christ. Our faith is not a dead faith but a living one based on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and His bride the Church. We not called to love principles, but to love God with all our hearts and all our souls and all our minds and all our strengths (Mark 12:30), and to love our neighbours as ourselves (31). Our faith is intimately based on relationships.
Great post!

God willing, you will be an excellent priest. I’ll ay a prayer for you and your discernment!
 
Well, they don’t seem to be spending it getting together with their fellow Catholics as a community.
And I suppose it has to be in your presence, at or after or before the particular Masses you attend, before you will be generous enough to allow that maybe they have different opportunities at community, out of your sight, and that they partake of such opportunities.
What I was saying though is that there’s too many people who get Sacraments and that’s it. They don’t want to talk to their neighbour, they just want to get in-and-out (observe the number of people who leave right after communion). They just want to get (back) to their Sunday NFL viewing.
And you know this how, again? You can read minds and hearts, just like God? How would you have the faintest idea what any stranger “wants” out of Mass, not to mention what they do with the rest of their Sunday, unless each of them tells you?

You may deduce accurately that many (not necessarily all) of those who leave right after communion have a poor understanding of liturgy, and/or are disrespectful of that liturgical community, or in fact are quite self-centered and self-focused about the purpose of Mass. But that’s all you can say. You can say that some of those might have those characteristics.

And “too many people” =/= “Catholics,” which is what you have said here several times. How do you know (for example) what the disposition is of any poster here with whom you disagree? What gives you the right to judge “Catholics” in general? (Including those attending the same Masses you attend)

I have attended Masses at which one or two members must leave early to participate in particular corporal works of mercy which have a limited opportunity (only on Sunday, only at particular hours). They don’t account for all the early departees, but neither would I nor would you know the individual reasons for all the other early departures.

The several faulty premises you continue to argue are these:

~it’s out of my vision, therefore it can’t occur; therefore Catholics as a group are self-centered and uninterested in community.

~certain behavior can categorically be attributed to particular unseen motivations, knowable by strangers

~genuine Catholic community is limited to Mass occasions (juxtaposed with that)

~I once tried to organize church social opportunities, unsuccessfully. That proves that Catholics (not limited to those Catholics, by the way) have a narrow understanding of Catholic community. It couldn’t have been one of many other possibilities, such as (a) some people take a long time to change; or (b) the approach used was ineffective; or (c) my personality was not effective with this particular group or these groups of people; or (d) there were a variety of practical reasons why it didn’t work – such as valid time conflicts (competing responsibilities), combined with a small initial critical Mass which discouraged continuation; or (e) Mass-goers prefer to socialize within a different context.

(For example, growing out of doing an activity together, which allows them to get to know their brothers and sisters on a more substantial basis, as opposed to superficially. That happens in my parish: people tend to form community based on things like prayer groups, bible study, catechetical groups, interest groups, and intellectual pursuits (book discussions, etc.) That doesn’t mean that they are not friendly at coffee hours after Mass; they are, but the latter is a pretty narrow definition of “community.”
So it might be a better idea to drop the cynicism and the distrust and the assumptions about others in order to be a better instrument of community. Just sayin’… 🤷
 
Well, they don’t seem to be spending it getting together with their fellow Catholics as a community.

What I was saying though is that there’s too many people who get Sacraments and that’s it. They don’t want to talk to their neighbour, they just want to get in-and-out (observe the number of people who leave right after communion). They just want to get (back) to their Sunday NFL viewing.

Uh, Catholicism is based on Natural Law. The philosophy/theology of Thomas Aquinas is based on Natural Law with the highest good being love of God.

Furthermore, Catholicism has a strong rational tradition; it’s why we do so much philosophy. And obedience in the Catholic tradition is given to a set of uniform principles and our leadership and governance is based on those principles.

Furthermore, Catholicism does have a charismatic authority (in your definition) in the person of Jesus Christ. Our faith is not a dead faith but a living one based on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and His bride the Church. We not called to love principles, but to love God with all our hearts and all our souls and all our minds and all our strengths (Mark 12:30), and to love our neighbours as ourselves (31). Our faith is intimately based on relationships.
Uh, Catholicism is based on Natural Law. The philosophy/theology of Thomas Aquinas is based on Natural Law with the highest good being love of God.

My post was about “Traditional Athority” Yes the church is traditional and rooted in history Your saying its not?
  1. Traditional authority is rooted in history and tradition. This should be the church in my opinion.
What part of this definition can you argue the Catholic Church is not? Rooted in history or rooted in tradition?

Where the church is based on natural law it also follows traditional authority
If you disagree you would be wrong.

Furthermore, Catholicism has a strong rational tradition; it’s why we do so much philosophy. And obedience in the Catholic tradition is given to a set of uniform principles and our leadership and governance is based on those principles

Obedience in the Catholic tradition? Oh really then why is there a wide spread division between modern or liberal catholics and so called traditionalist? Most trads dont have an issue with the NOM per say its the liturgical abuse the liberalism people take advantage of poorly informed preists and bishops. Was ripping out the alter rails that divided holy of holies obedience or personal agenda? How about taking out the tabernacle from the sanctuary? Female Eucharistic ministers,alter girls, Armies of (extra ordinary) Eucharistica ministers at every mass. EM administering blessings on the children as if they had a preistly ordination to do so. Liturgical abuse is rampant in the name of pollitically correctness and charisma.

**Furthermore, Catholicism does have a charismatic authority (in your definition) in the person of Jesus Christ. Our faith is not a dead faith but a living one based on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ **

Jesus charismatic? Jesus was no hippi He came not to abolish the law but fulfil it.

Jesus wasnt crucified so we could live a lifestyle of our choosing. He died for our sins not so we could commit sin.

Seems you lean more towards protestant views than Roman Catholic.

**We not called to love principles, but to love God with all our hearts and all our souls and all our minds ** What exactly do you mean by this? sola scriptura nonsense We dont have to follow the rules of the church as long as we love God? Definition of principles 1.A fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.
 
And I suppose it has to be in your presence, at or after or before the particular Masses you attend, before you will be generous enough to allow that maybe they have different opportunities at community, out of your sight, and that they partake of such opportunities.
Getting together with a few friends does not count as a community. Getting together as a community implicitly means that you’re with people you wouldn’t normally hang out with in your own free time.

And before you ask, I was basically an organizer or helper for nearly every even that happened for Catholics on campus. I’m also good friends with Campus Ministry, and they express the same frustrations.
I have attended Masses at which one or two members must leave early to participate in particular corporal works of mercy which have a limited opportunity (only on Sunday, only at particular hours). They don’t account for all the early departees, but neither would I nor would you know the individual reasons for all the other early departures.
Well, I hope you made the effort to tell them that they didn’t fulfill their Sunday obligation then. Cutting out early for any non-grave reason (even for corporal works of mercy) means you didn’t assist at a full Mass.

The several faulty premises you continue to argue are these:
~genuine Catholic community is limited to Mass occasions (juxtaposed with that)
Have you actually read any of my posts? I have been arguing the exact opposite of that. I’ve been arguing that Catholics should be getting together outside of Mass, outside of Sunday even.
~I once tried to organize church social opportunities, unsuccessfully.
Once? Try a couple dozen times (or more) over a few years with university-aged people who are well-known for their socializing habits. And like I said, it’s not just me, because I’ve been hearing the same story from other groups and people.
(For example, growing out of doing an activity together, which allows them to get to know their brothers and sisters on a more substantial basis, as opposed to superficially. That happens in my parish: people tend to form community based on things like prayer groups, bible study, catechetical groups, interest groups, and intellectual pursuits (book discussions, etc.) That doesn’t mean that they are not friendly at coffee hours after Mass; they are, but the latter is a pretty narrow definition of “community.”
And we tried all of the above. There was very little interest, not enough to justify all the time for preparation.

And again, nowhere did I say that the times around Mass were the only times for community.
So it might be a better idea to drop the cynicism and the distrust and the assumptions about others in order to be a better instrument of community. Just sayin’… 🤷
Well, I happen to be a realist.
 
My post was about “Traditional Athority” Yes the church is traditional and rooted in history Your saying its not?
  1. Traditional authority is rooted in history and tradition. This should be the church in my opinion.
What part of this definition can you argue the Catholic Church is not? Rooted in history or rooted in tradition?

Where the church is based on natural law it also follows traditional authority
If you disagree you would be wrong.
No. If you’re going with a traditional definition of “traditional authority”, it essentially boils down to “we do things this way because we’ve always done things this way”. In the Catholic tradition, “we’ve always done things this way” is not a self-justifying reason. The Church does things for underlying reasons that are based on rational principles.

For example, the Church has the authority to change the Mass to the OF and no amount of appealing to tradition is going to change the fact that the Church did it.
Obedience in the Catholic tradition? Oh really then why is there a wide spread division between modern or liberal catholics and so called traditionalist? Most trads dont have an issue with the NOM per say its the liturgical abuse …
What does this have to do with anything? We’re talking about normative things here, not descriptive.
Jesus charismatic? Jesus was no hippi He came not to abolish the law but fulfil it.
When did charismatic become conflated with hippy? You seem to be committing a lot of logical fallacies.
**We not called to love principles, but to love God with all our hearts and all our souls and all our minds ** What exactly do you mean by this? sola scriptura nonsense We dont have to follow the rules of the church as long as we love God? Definition of principles 1.A fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.
We only love the principles because they come from God. We follow the rules because we love God and follow God because this is the way God has ordered things. It all leads back to God.

The foundation for our religion is not principles. The foundation of Catholicism is Jesus Christ, the cornerstone, the rock foundation of our Church. Apart from Jesus these principles have no meaning, and apart from God they are flawed (because, by definition, being apart from God is to be flawed and incomplete).

Your own relationship with Jesus Christ is of the utmost importance, and the way to be a friend of God (to achieve holiness) is to follow the precepts He has set down. And Natural Law helps us to understand what those precepts are.
 
Getting together with a few friends does not count as a community. Getting together as a community implicitly means that you’re with people you wouldn’t normally hang out with in your own free time.
…which is completely non-responsive and irrelevant to what I said here, which is what you supposedly “replied” to:
And I suppose it has to be in your presence, at or after or before the particular Masses you attend, before you will be generous enough to allow that maybe they have different opportunities at community, out of your sight, and that they partake of such opportunities
The boxed quote has no mention of “getting together with a few friends.” That is just (once again) your (negative) assumptions about people: If you can’t control it and see it (and perhaps get to take responsibility for it? ;)), it hasn’t happened, or it would be something you would disapprove of and find insufficient.

And to this comment on mine
I have attended Masses at which one or two members must leave early to participate in particular corporal works of mercy which have a limited opportunity (only on Sunday, only at particular hours). They don’t account for all the early departees, but neither would I nor would you know the individual reasons for all the other early departures.
you replied:
Well, I hope you made the effort to tell them that they didn’t fulfill their Sunday obligation then. Cutting out early for any non-grave reason (even for corporal works of mercy) means you didn’t assist at a full Mass.
No, I didn’t take it upon myself to leave my position in the choir, run to the doors, accost them while they were leaving, and assert the privilege of scolding them. I am more interested in drawing them into community than of forcing them out. Hmmm.

Nor did I judge them rashly. I did later learn, by happenstance, what their purpose was in leaving. This may be an issue for the pastor, but to state or suggest that their early departures signify, in themselves, a disdain for community, is both uncharitable and unwarranted.

As to all the other protestations on your part about how your supposedly varied & multiple efforts prove without a doubt that Catholics have no interest in community, they prove nothing. They prove that your collective efforts did not work for reasons that cannot necessarily be attributed to an overall dislike of community – both by those Catholics and by Catholics in general. In churches I’ve attended which are near campuses, there are ups and downs with regard to interest in forming community. In some years, campus ministry, and their carry-over in the local parish, is vibrant & effective; in other years,not. Student bodiies shift,campus cultures shift, and the vibrancy and leadership of the adjacent parish also changes. Some parish staff (including but not limited to the pastor assigned to campus ministry internally) are dynamic & happen to attract youth & are successful in maintaining leadership with regard to community. In other years, those efforts are a complete failure. In any case, your continual effort to assign blame to lay Catholics, particularly and generally, I find really disturbing.
 
No. Building community requires at least one other person who wants to build with you.

I’ve attended Mass in many parishes on three continents and I can honestly say that none of them seemed to give two figs if I was there or not. From my college parish - situated in town home to a university with more than 40,000 students - that did not have one ministry geared towards young adults, to my current parish - that hasn’t managed to even get my family enrolled despite numerous attempts on our part to d so - I’ve found a decided lack of interest on the part of anyone at any of them in community building.

I long, long ago resigned myself to parish life as reception of sacraments with a bunch of strangers, too many of whom can’t manage a smile much less express any kind of outward manifestation of joy. Friendship, sense of community, the “human touch” - that stuff I find anywhere and everywhere but a Catholic parish.

Luna
I think you do have a point. Some parishes and groups just aren’t very welcoming. When I was in college, I was a part of our NewmanCenter and basically there were just 10 of us, and 8 of them were really close couples who did everything together and weren’t very inclusive (which irked our chaplain and the nun who was in charge). As a result whenever we had people join, they would leave for a group like Campus Crusade or would stay in the church, but only go to mass once in a while, and what was sad was that some of the people who joined Cru became leaders of the organization and left the church or would stay in the church, but basically think like a protestant.

However… I don’t bout the blame on the lay people totally. Some people just are searching for something different. Also, many people may not be catechized very well, and i’m sure this happens a lot more in Latin America where it is more of a “cultural catholicism” rather than one based on faith. I
 
I think that the Pope has provided some of the factors behind Latin American Catholics becoming evangelicals. For example, one important factor that was not mentioned in the article is the number of priests in Latin American. Some parishes have thousands of parishioners for each priest, which means that parishioners can expect almost no pastoral care from their clergy.
 
No, I didn’t take it upon myself to leave my position in the choir, run to the doors, accost them while they were leaving, and assert the privilege of scolding them.
I was merely making a theological comment, not a comment on your actions.
I think you do have a point. Some parishes and groups just aren’t very welcoming. When I was in college, I was a part of our NewmanCenter and basically there were just 10 of us, and 8 of them were really close couples who did everything together and weren’t very inclusive (which irked our chaplain and the nun who was in charge). As a result whenever we had people join, they would leave for a group like Campus Crusade or would stay in the church, but only go to mass once in a while, and what was sad was that some of the people who joined Cru became leaders of the organization and left the church or would stay in the church, but basically think like a protestant.
I know that Campus for Christ was doing better then us on our campus.
 
My experience of trying to organize get-togethers for people. People just aren’t interested in getting together outside of that 1 hour at Mass each week.

But good job, they managed to give God 1 out of 168 hours that week. I’m sure the husbands and wives or people dating can tell us how well relationships hold together on 1 hour a week.
Hmm…it would seem that your experience argues counter to what the Holy Father is recommending. You tried to be more welcoming, more vibrant, etc, but it didn’t work. 🤷

Contrast that to the “Traditionalists” you bemoan. At our parish, a young priest came in, often wearing the traditional cassock, tossed out the guitar Masses, added a Latin OF Mass with Gregorian chant (not all…the others are all English, but with traditional music), replaced the ressurectifix with a proper Crucifix, improved Catechesis, switched to all-male altar servers (also in traditional garb), added perpetual adoration, tripled the amount of Confession times (as he encouraged Confession, of course) and added a Corpus Christi procession. Our parish increased in numbers and thrived. It dipped a little with an interim priest, but we are back on track with another, similarly-minded priest (our Bishop wisely assessed what we needed). During all of this, the outreach programs you listed also thrived.

Community comes with energized, “Traditionalist” Catholics.
 
Hmm…
Community comes with energized, “Traditionalist” Catholics.
And, in my experience, with energized Catholics of any style (traditional or not). Supporting, however, Robert’s viewpoint (and experience), here is my own, for reflection:

Community is linked to spirituality (if it’s genuine, if there’s continuity to it, if there’s some spontaneity to it). It cannot be forced. It’s not something that happens merely, or primarily, via earnest coaxing (no matter how sincere the coaxer). It’s not something
that appears “on demand” or as a result of “reminders.”

Community grows out of the encounter with Jesus Christ, as that encounter:

~is modeled in the priesthood (in the person of the priest, through his witness, through his engagement with liturgy and the spirituality which is apparent in his homilies, through the joy and other gospel values which he communicates

~is similarly modeled in any other parish staff, and among lay volunteers (such as various leadership positions and staff functions)

~is made possible through frequent opportunity for the Sacraments – esp. both Penance & Eucharist, and in particular how those sacraments are celebrated & available

~is extended through additional opportunities for reflective parish programs, such as Adoration, structured community prayer (LOTH & more), open chapels which invite visits, advent & lenten preparation programs, periodic retreats in-parish

~is encouraged directly by the priest, playing a leadership role in urging a deep and adult (developed) spirituality and directly discouraging “using” Eucharist mechanically, outside of liturgical context and the Liturgy of the Word. The catechesis and the directive about ‘leaving after Communion’ properly belongs to the pastor himself; it is he who should take the lead, and it is he who will be respected as the authority, not random lay people behaving like self-appointed deputies.

I think Robert’s point is that a rich in-parish Catholic prayer life (if accessed) does not inhibit community, nor is contradictory to it. And my point is, is that it is the best potential community-builder, whether that’s a very Traditional parish or a somewhat more modern one. It’s the parishioners’ collective consciousness and practice of Catholic spirituality which is continually reinvigorated by a pastor/staff which is itself committed to that. It’s a lot of work to achieve that: work by clergy, work by responsive parishioners.

If that consciousness meets specific suggestions for community, a perfect storm may ensue, but it is more likely (in my own experience) to occur in that direction than to occur in the other direction (as an external suggestion to spiritually lukewarm Catholics).

Like Robert, I have followed the ups and downs of a particular parish in this regard. (By no means has it ever been anything resembling “traditional.” Yet, it has often been vibrant, and at times absolutely effervescing with community.) At all times when that did occur, the above elements were comprehensively present --despite the very modern & even “maverick” style of this parish. The priests modeled a rigorous spirituality & vibrant liturgy, and separately emanated a Christ-consciousness particular to their unique personalities. Those have been the high tides of that parish.

By contrast, one of the lowest ebbs occurred when 2 of the 3 residing priests had serious mental problems which impacted radically their relations with their parishioners. The problems preceded their priesthood and were not related to it, except that the stresses & isolation of the priesthood undoubtedly magnified these. The third priest is a wonderful man & priest, but was & is elderly and an extreme introvert. Basically,no leadership was occurring, and the concept of community was a distant horizon. Mass attendance dipped to a frightening level, and there was an air of “lifelessness” about the place.

That same parish now has markedly different priests, but importantly, this is also a different time in the Church, with some renewed curiosity about Catholicism, and the demographics of the parish itself have somewhat changed. The typical current parishioner is younger than before, and is more interested in a reverential liturgical experience (though not classically “traditional”). The parish also has a new bishop, who is himself emphasizing & celebrating reverential liturgies and tasteful music. All these elements together are making for more genuine community than this parish has seen in a long time. Yet I’ve heard no announcements about formal, structured efforts to “create community.”

Let’s return to the example of the parishioners who ‘leave right after Communion.’ And let’s pretend that none of them are leaving for corporal works of mercy within a limited time requirement. Who are the biggest losers in that situation? The people who leave, that’s who. And not appreciating the community value of full attendance at liturgy, they can hardly be expected (realistically) to create or support Community. They have lost the full value of the community liturgical experience and are therefore not in a position to be instruments of community. They are back in Square One. They are not candidates for “organized (community) efforts.” They are not nearly ready for that, so the staff at that parish has a far more elemental task to tackle with such parishioners, than jumping ahead to “creating community” and wondering why it’s not happening.

A final word about Realism vs. Pessimism:

The experience of disillusionment is, as I have read about it, fairly universal in the ministerial priesthood. Eager, recently ordained priests are often shocked or dismayed to encounter so very little fidelity or thirst for spirituality among the typical Mass-goer. If they start dwelling on that “reality” for very long, they experience a souring of their own commitment, attitude, and vocation. There’s something of a transcendent consciousness which they need to arm themselves with in order to be able to respond to those who are on fire (or potentially on fire), and especially to have enough vision to see beyond appearances. What just appears on the surface in the pews can be very misleading. That’s even more true when it comes to cultural barriers in the modern mixed-ethnicity Catholic Church. Lots of people are not especially demonstrative or outwardly enthusiastic. That doesn’t mean that they’re not gradually responding, converting, and being transformed. But it’s not always on other people’s clocks, or in other people’s imagined ways (including the imaginations of priests).

Those are my two cents, having myself spent a long time learning to shed expectations of others to behave or respond in particular ways.
 
And, in my experience, with energized Catholics of any style (traditional or not). Supporting, however, Robert’s viewpoint (and experience), here is my own, for reflection:

Community is linked to spirituality (if it’s genuine, if there’s continuity to it, if there’s some spontaneity to it). It cannot be forced. It’s not something that happens merely, or primarily, via earnest coaxing (no matter how sincere the coaxer). It’s not something
that appears “on demand” or as a result of “reminders.”

Community grows out of the encounter with Jesus Christ, as that encounter:

~is modeled in the priesthood (in the person of the priest, through his witness, through his engagement with liturgy and the spirituality which is apparent in his homilies, through the joy and other gospel values which he communicates

~is similarly modeled in any other parish staff, and among lay volunteers (such as various leadership positions and staff functions)

~is made possible through frequent opportunity for the Sacraments – esp. both Penance & Eucharist, and in particular how those sacraments are celebrated & available

~is extended through additional opportunities for reflective parish programs, such as Adoration, structured community prayer (LOTH & more), open chapels which invite visits, advent & lenten preparation programs, periodic retreats in-parish

~is encouraged directly by the priest, playing a leadership role in urging a deep and adult (developed) spirituality and directly discouraging “using” Eucharist mechanically, outside of liturgical context and the Liturgy of the Word. The catechesis and the directive about ‘leaving after Communion’ properly belongs to the pastor himself; it is he who should take the lead, and it is he who will be respected as the authority, not random lay people behaving like self-appointed deputies.

I think Robert’s point is that a rich in-parish Catholic prayer life (if accessed) does not inhibit community, nor is contradictory to it. And my point is, is that it is the best potential community-builder, whether that’s a very Traditional parish or a somewhat more modern one. It’s the parishioners’ collective consciousness and practice of Catholic spirituality which is continually reinvigorated by a pastor/staff which is itself committed to that. It’s a lot of work to achieve that: work by clergy, work by responsive parishioners.

If that consciousness meets specific suggestions for community, a perfect storm may ensue, but it is more likely (in my own experience) to occur in that direction than to occur in the other direction (as an external suggestion to spiritually lukewarm Catholics).

Like Robert, I have followed the ups and downs of a particular parish in this regard. (By no means has it ever been anything resembling “traditional.” Yet, it has often been vibrant, and at times absolutely effervescing with community.) At all times when that did occur, the above elements were comprehensively present --despite the very modern & even “maverick” style of this parish. The priests modeled a rigorous spirituality & vibrant liturgy, and separately emanated a Christ-consciousness particular to their unique personalities. Those have been the high tides of that parish.

By contrast, one of the lowest ebbs occurred when 2 of the 3 residing priests had serious mental problems which impacted radically their relations with their parishioners. The problems preceded their priesthood and were not related to it, except that the stresses & isolation of the priesthood undoubtedly magnified these. The third priest is a wonderful man & priest, but was & is elderly and an extreme introvert. Basically,no leadership was occurring, and the concept of community was a distant horizon. Mass attendance dipped to a frightening level, and there was an air of “lifelessness” about the place.

That same parish now has markedly different priests, but importantly, this is also a different time in the Church, with some renewed curiosity about Catholicism, and the demographics of the parish itself have somewhat changed. The typical current parishioner is younger than before, and is more interested in a reverential liturgical experience (though not classically “traditional”). The parish also has a new bishop, who is himself emphasizing & celebrating reverential liturgies and tasteful music. All these elements together are making for more genuine community than this parish has seen in a long time. Yet I’ve heard no announcements about formal, structured efforts to “create community.”

Let’s return to the example of the parishioners who ‘leave right after Communion.’ And let’s pretend that none of them are leaving for corporal works of mercy within a limited time requirement. Who are the biggest losers in that situation? The people who leave, that’s who. And not appreciating the community value of full attendance at liturgy, they can hardly be expected (realistically) to create or support Community. They have lost the full value of the community liturgical experience and are therefore not in a position to be instruments of community. They are back in Square One. They are not candidates for “organized (community) efforts.” They are not nearly ready for that, so the staff at that parish has a far more elemental task to tackle with such parishioners, than jumping ahead to “creating community” and wondering why it’s not happening.

A final word about Realism vs. Pessimism:

The experience of disillusionment is, as I have read about it, fairly universal in the ministerial priesthood. Eager, recently ordained priests are often shocked or dismayed to encounter so very little fidelity or thirst for spirituality among the typical Mass-goer. If they start dwelling on that “reality” for very long, they experience a souring of their own commitment, attitude, and vocation. There’s something of a transcendent consciousness which they need to arm themselves with in order to be able to respond to those who are on fire (or potentially on fire), and especially to have enough vision to see beyond appearances. What just appears on the surface in the pews can be very misleading. That’s even more true when it comes to cultural barriers in the modern mixed-ethnicity Catholic Church. Lots of people are not especially demonstrative or outwardly enthusiastic. That doesn’t mean that they’re not gradually responding, converting, and being transformed. But it’s not always on other people’s clocks, or in other people’s imagined ways (including the imaginations of priests).

Those are my two cents, having myself spent a long time learning to shed expectations of others to behave or respond in particular ways.
Wow. An excellent witness. As someone who converted in a non-“Traditionalist” parish, I heartily agree. While I look with a little disappointment at the “cafeteria-style” Catholicism of the parish of my conversion, I recognize your comments as consistent with my experience. In many ways, the parish of my conversion was vibrant, despite the awful music (which I participated in as choir-member and Cantor) and liturgical dancers, et al. Vibrant community can take more than one form. :gopray:
 
No. If you’re going with a traditional definition of “traditional authority”, it essentially boils down to “we do things this way because we’ve always done things this way”. In the Catholic tradition, “we’ve always done things this way” is not a self-justifying reason. The Church does things for underlying reasons that are based on rational principles.

For example, the Church has the authority to change the Mass to the OF and no amount of appealing to tradition is going to change the fact that the Church did it.

What does this have to do with anything? We’re talking about normative things here, not descriptive.

When did charismatic become conflated with hippy? You seem to be committing a lot of logical fallacies.

We only love the principles because they come from God. We follow the rules because we love God and follow God because this is the way God has ordered things. It all leads back to God.

The foundation for our religion is not principles. The foundation of Catholicism is Jesus Christ, the cornerstone, the rock foundation of our Church. Apart from Jesus these principles have no meaning, and apart from God they are flawed (because, by definition, being apart from God is to be flawed and incomplete).

Your own relationship with Jesus Christ is of the utmost importance, and the way to be a friend of God (to achieve holiness) is to follow the precepts He has set down. And Natural Law helps us to understand what those precepts are.
If you’re going with a traditional definition of “traditional authority”, it essentially boils down to “we do things this way because we’ve always done things this way”.

Again your using the protestant view point.

Your way off base on this one.
Tradition holds on to keeping the truth not going off on wild tagents

One of the great differences between Protestant and Catholic doctrine is in the area of Tradition. The Protestant church maintains that the Bible alone is intended by God to be the source of doctrinal truth (2 Tim. 3:16). The Catholic Church, however, says, “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God . . .” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 97. Note, all citations in this article are from this Catechism).

The Catholic Church reasons thusly:
1.“The apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority.’” (Par. 77).
2.“This living transmission, accomplished through the Holy Spirit, is called tradition…” (Par. 78).
3.“Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” (Par. 82).

When did charismatic become conflated with hippy? You seem to be committing a lot of logical fallacies.

Typically liberal christians think of Jesus as a liberal… kind of a live and let live ideology Jesus died for our sins that makes everything ok. His death and ressurection is our “get out of hell free card” I assure you this is not the case.Jesus died for our sins not so we could commit them.
The gates to hell are wide open while the gate to Heaven is narrow.

My generation early baby boomers usually think of liberal minded folks as “hippies”
The word liberal **was used **in a negatve reference to those who seeminlg have no morals Like being pollitically correct. Im ok your ok.

Me committing a lot of logical fallacies? Have you ever visited a so called Charismatic Catholic church?..I have. It doesnt have the flavor if you will of the Holy Roman Catholic Mass Its looks more like a protestant church service. Herecy can not one day become truth! And you want to call Jesus a charismatic leader? When you think or read of a Chasmatic leaders the word “cults” usually pop up some where along the line. We are not a cult.
The Catholic Mass was formulated to be dignified and refined not charismatic to the point of pew jumping and rolling on the floor.

The foundation for our religion is not principles. Really so what your saying here principles are not important the USCCB would beg to differ with you

Far too many Catholics are not familiar with the basic content of Catholic social teaching. More fundamentally, many Catholics do not adequately understand that the social teaching of the Church is an essential part of Catholic faith. This poses a serious challenge for all Catholics, since it weakens our capacity to be a Church that is true to the demands of the Gospel
This sounds like you.
Of Course Jesus is our foundation but you cannot have the Roman Catholic Church with out principles.

principles plural of prin·ci·ple (Noun)
Noun:
1.A fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning. (Why do I have to repost the same definitions over and over again)?

Instead of accepting the truth i.e. what the church teaches youve just turned this debate into an exercise of ego.
 
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