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Tigg
Guest
Because Pope Benedict is doing just what he said he would do - living a quiet life of prayer and he will not renege on that. He is following God’s will in his life and certainly would never do anything to cause further scandal.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
It makes no sense to me if someone born into a community can be with God on their Christian journey to live a Christian life. But then to say someone else can’t in the same community just because they were not born into such. None of us, Tigg, is without sin or a plank in our eyes even as we journey with the One Who is. And as 838 says, you are joined with even those who do not profess the faith in its entirety.
Peace
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boar2roar
Guest
So your personal experience invalidates every other statistic in terms of Episcopalians?
The Episcopalians are actually a perfect case study for what would happen if the progressives got their way in the catholic church They found out that liberals and secularists tend not to stay as liberal christian but just move on to being nothing or non practicing. If you want to go to a social event which these churches become once they chuck out doctrine it makes much more sense to just join a club, sports team, or reading circle if you want to meet up with other people in a group setting.
If anything they prove that going left and being progressive doesn’t help a church rebound. They made great friends with the media who love them dearly for that but the thing about the media is that they only report on religious institutions with a lot of members and influence, unfortunately for the episcopalians they lost that while trying to be hip.
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Sy_Noe
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I know something about moving on to being non practicing in the CC. What you say is not limited to TEC. But I haven’t moved on to nothing. I’m still Christian. I’ve even attended Roman Mass since Easter just so you don’t paint me as having only gone on the 2 major holidays. I love and welcome the gentler tone of the Holy Father Pope Francis and of the likes of Cardinal Kasper. But I’m not convinced conservatives are offering the same tone or what the tone of the next Pope will be. So I remain in search for a more progressive community in which to worship. Not for a social club. I believe in one God and in Jesus just as you do.
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Rin
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I strongly disagree that everyone could be fit into some sort of ideology; it is based on a reduction of personal opinion to ideology, or even worse, reduction of orthodoxy to ideology. In reality, orthodoxy is the antithesis of ideology, and ideology can never be orthodox.
Similarly, describing the Church as “center right” is too simple and again a reduction, since such alignment with secular politics is, even when correct (which it often hasn’t been; it depends on the subject matter and what secular politics look like at the time), mere coincidence. The Church simply does not, and cannot, subscribe to ideology.
I’ve written more about this in another post however, and since I’m having a major bout of common cold, I’ll be lazy and quote myself:
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boar2roar
Guest
What are you talking about? I was referring to Episcopalians as a large group not you specifically.
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boar2roar
Guest
Not all the bishops agree on orthodoxy though… not all catholics agree on orthodoxy… it isn’t that clear. Believing in orthodoxy is a belief system kind of like an ideology really its just semantics.
Center right might be a new term for describing people but right wing, left wing thought didn’t begin when they were coined during the french revolution. Right wing genrealy means believing strongly in order, hierarchy, tradition while left wing emphasizes change, the unorthodox … those sides have existed since human civilization has.
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Rin
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No, the difference between orthodoxy and ideology is one of essence, not of semantics. Orthodoxy knows its bounds, its domain. Ideology does not. Orthodoxy is allegiance to the fullness of Catholic teaching. Ideology is an elevation of a particular truth to the whole truth. Orthodoxy is from God. Ideology is from Man.
Your problem is still that you try to reduce the Church to an ideology, to reduce orthodoxy to conservatism.
In reality, the Church conserves as well as liberates as well as progresses. She cannot be reduced to one of the three ideologies of conservatism, liberalism or progressivism (the latter can be reactionary as well as actionary, by the way). They are all heterodox, since they take away from the fullness of Catholic teaching.
To sum up my view on ideology: Ideology is a cancer in the Church, and it needs to be cut out. The Modernist reduction of everything to ideology hurts the Church, as it is polarizing, erroneous and not least encourages further ideologization.
Lastly, as a side point: Your definition of right-wing vs. left-wing is faulty. The right-left axis in politics is one of economy, not of moral and societal values. There fact that many left-wing politicians may also be progressives is coincidental; it is perfectly possible for left-wingers to be conservative. It is also perfectly possible (and I’d say most normal) for right-wingers to be liberal.
You’re referring to what is commonly termed the authoritarian-libertarian axis, which I personaly would separate to make an additional conservative-progressive axis. But threedimensional charts tend to hurt people’s eyes, so the most common is a two-axis representation.
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Sy_Noe
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I just sometimes think Catholics are too eager to bring up attendance in and people leaving mainline Protestant faith communities when pews are not exactly overflowing each wk in Catholic parishes. I know the CC claims as Catholic any of us baptized in or received into the Church. But many of us become non practicing too. That’s all I was talking about. Peace.
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ProVobis
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zz912
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Those quotes don’t answer my question. Could you answer my question?
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litldog2
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I wanted to thank you for your post regarding the oft wrong secular news media.
Many of those Gen X and Millennials ( and indeed, us Baby Boomers) have no idea what the Church teaches and will take media literally. I know of a woman who believes that it’s okay to accept communion even though she’s been married twice and her husband has been married three times. I don’t know, maybe it is.
If that wasn’t bad enough, she vocally voices her opinion on how ‘right’ abortion is given the correct circumstances. They are the people to whom people look toward and stop attending Mass because they are there, which, of course, isn’t the correct thing to do, but that’s where the ‘scandal’ label comes in, i.e., ‘they believe such and such and they’re here, thus this is the wrong religion’. Perhaps the Pope is trying to tell us we have to not look at the ‘scandal’ and accept each other, leaving it up to God to judge.Secular belief has taken over this country. It’s acceptable now for people, even the older of us who are widowed) to live together without the benefit of marriage (i.e., what will happen to my social security, retirement benefits, etc., if I marry?) and a myriad of other beliefs. New issues that were never present before not present as a reason as to why it isn’t sinful to live together as long as they ‘commit’. Whatever.
Sad in a way.
I wish the Church taught from the pulpit what many protestant churches teach, i.e., the Bible. Sure, they read it, but never do they actively denounce secular world teachings and acceptance as to why they are wrong and never to do they point to any references in the CCC that might help young people clear up any misunderstandings. If only people knew their CCC (the adult one
)However, Jesus did say that at some point, this world will pass away. And if people really believed that, perhaps they would live according to His Word, not a particular group’s ‘word’ which is always, always changed to suit their purposes.
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Sy_Noe
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You asked if someone who violates the Catholic faith’s doctrine is living a Christian life. And the quotes explain how someone can be a Christian and have God and His Holy Spirit with them even when they don’t profess the Catholic faith in its entirety.
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Rin
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I agree, especially not in any one country. And perhaps even less so in the States, but even in countries with many parties, they tend to form two blocks, at maximum three.
This is why I’m against party politics as such, and I believe the formation of parties destroyed Western democracy. But I guess that’s an entirely different debate which should not take place in this thread.
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boar2roar
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Lastly, as a side point: Your definition of right-wing vs. left-wing is faulty. The right-left axis in politics is one of economy, not of moral and societal values. There fact that many left-wing politicians may also be progressives is coincidental; it is perfectly possible for left-wingers to be conservative. It is also perfectly possible (and I’d say most normal) for right-wingers to be liberal.
You’re referring to what is commonly termed the authoritarian-libertarian axis, which I personaly would separate to make an additional conservative-progressive axis. But threedimensional charts tend to hurt people’s eyes, so the most common is a two-axis representation./QUOTEI
I was using right wing as a synonym for conservative and left wing for liberal. The economic and societal views have been blended now in current politics but still in everyday speech people call political parties like the BNP far right even though economically they aren’t.
Again I’m just curious do you think that both Kasper and Burke are equally orthodox? What about Lefebvre?
You’re referring to what is commonly termed the authoritarian-libertarian axis, which I personaly would separate to make an additional conservative-progressive axis. But threedimensional charts tend to hurt people’s eyes, so the most common is a two-axis representation./QUOTEI
I was using right wing as a synonym for conservative and left wing for liberal. The economic and societal views have been blended now in current politics but still in everyday speech people call political parties like the BNP far right even though economically they aren’t.
Again I’m just curious do you think that both Kasper and Burke are equally orthodox? What about Lefebvre?
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anthony022071
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*This article has some false and misleading statements. The bishops are not opposed to Pope Francis’ agenda,but some of them are opposed to the agenda of liberal bishops such Cardinal Kaspar and other liberals who work in the Church who are who are trying to steer the Church in a liberal direction. *
news.yahoo.com/us-bishops-struggling-under-francis-pontificate-061444771.html
< “Many of the U.S. bishops have been disoriented by what this new pope is saying and I don’t see them really as embracing the pope’s agenda,” said John Thavis, a former Rome bureau chief for the Catholic News Service. “To a large degree, the U.S. bishops have lost their bearings. I think up until now, they felt Rome had their back, and what they were saying — especially politically — would eventually be supported in Rome. They can’t count on that now.” >
*
The bishops have not indicated that they do not support the pope’s agenda,and the pope has not indicated that he does not support the bishops’ efforts at resisting the evil laws of the government. *
< The administration has made several changes to accommodate the bishops’ concerns, but church leaders say the White House hasn’t gone far enough. >
*
The changes to the heath care law were a trick. They did not do away with the government’s mandate that heath insurance provide coverage for abortion and contraceptives.
*
< Francis is pressing U.S. bishops to make what for many prelates is a wrenching turnaround: The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and individual church leaders have dedicated increasing resources over the years to the hot-button social issues the pontiff says should no longer be the focus. The bishops say they’ve been forced to emphasize these issues because of the growing acceptance of gay relationships and what they see as animosity toward Christians in America.
Dozens of dioceses and Catholic nonprofits have sued the Obama administration over the birth control coverage requirement in the Affordable Care Act, the president’s signature health care reform law. The administration has made several changes to accommodate the bishops’ concerns, but church leaders say the White House hasn’t gone far enough.
Through the bishops’ religious liberty campaigns, church leaders have sought expansive exemptions for religious objectors to a range of laws and policies, including recognition for same-sex marriage and workplace protections for gays and lesbians.
Ahead of the November elections, the Catholic Conference of Illinois, representing all the state’s bishops, said in a voters’ guide that abortion and related issues had far greater moral weight than immigration and poverty — issues Francis has said are at the center of the Gospel and at the core of his pontificate. >
*
This indicates that the reporter is opposed to the U.S. bishops’ efforts against abortion,homosexual marriage,birth control coverage and the government’s intrusions on religious liberty,and their attempt to influence Catholics to vote with a Catholic conscience.
And it is right to say that the issues of abortion,homosexual marriage and contraception are of greater moral weight than those of immigration and poverty,because they are always evil and must always be opposed,whereas there does not need to be agreement on how the government deals with immigration and poverty,nor is it morally necessary to support government programs for immigrants and the poor.*
< Bishops have been asserting themselves as the sole authorities in their dioceses and as the arbiters of what would be considered authentically Catholic. Following the lead of St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, who appointed nearly all the current U.S. bishops, the prelates saw this approach as critical to defending orthodoxy. >
*
The bishops have not been doing this. And many of the bishops have not even been much interested in defending orthodoxy.
*
news.yahoo.com/us-bishops-struggling-under-francis-pontificate-061444771.html
< “Many of the U.S. bishops have been disoriented by what this new pope is saying and I don’t see them really as embracing the pope’s agenda,” said John Thavis, a former Rome bureau chief for the Catholic News Service. “To a large degree, the U.S. bishops have lost their bearings. I think up until now, they felt Rome had their back, and what they were saying — especially politically — would eventually be supported in Rome. They can’t count on that now.” >
*
The bishops have not indicated that they do not support the pope’s agenda,and the pope has not indicated that he does not support the bishops’ efforts at resisting the evil laws of the government. *
< The administration has made several changes to accommodate the bishops’ concerns, but church leaders say the White House hasn’t gone far enough. >
*
The changes to the heath care law were a trick. They did not do away with the government’s mandate that heath insurance provide coverage for abortion and contraceptives.
*
< Francis is pressing U.S. bishops to make what for many prelates is a wrenching turnaround: The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and individual church leaders have dedicated increasing resources over the years to the hot-button social issues the pontiff says should no longer be the focus. The bishops say they’ve been forced to emphasize these issues because of the growing acceptance of gay relationships and what they see as animosity toward Christians in America.
Dozens of dioceses and Catholic nonprofits have sued the Obama administration over the birth control coverage requirement in the Affordable Care Act, the president’s signature health care reform law. The administration has made several changes to accommodate the bishops’ concerns, but church leaders say the White House hasn’t gone far enough.
Through the bishops’ religious liberty campaigns, church leaders have sought expansive exemptions for religious objectors to a range of laws and policies, including recognition for same-sex marriage and workplace protections for gays and lesbians.
Ahead of the November elections, the Catholic Conference of Illinois, representing all the state’s bishops, said in a voters’ guide that abortion and related issues had far greater moral weight than immigration and poverty — issues Francis has said are at the center of the Gospel and at the core of his pontificate. >
*
This indicates that the reporter is opposed to the U.S. bishops’ efforts against abortion,homosexual marriage,birth control coverage and the government’s intrusions on religious liberty,and their attempt to influence Catholics to vote with a Catholic conscience.
And it is right to say that the issues of abortion,homosexual marriage and contraception are of greater moral weight than those of immigration and poverty,because they are always evil and must always be opposed,whereas there does not need to be agreement on how the government deals with immigration and poverty,nor is it morally necessary to support government programs for immigrants and the poor.*
< Bishops have been asserting themselves as the sole authorities in their dioceses and as the arbiters of what would be considered authentically Catholic. Following the lead of St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, who appointed nearly all the current U.S. bishops, the prelates saw this approach as critical to defending orthodoxy. >
*
The bishops have not been doing this. And many of the bishops have not even been much interested in defending orthodoxy.
*
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Deltadeliquent
Guest
How can anyone oppose Pope Francis’ agenda, opinions, or the direction he
is leading the Church?
No one really knows what he stands for!
He sows confusion by standing on the sidelines and smiling like a Cheshire Cat.
is leading the Church?
No one really knows what he stands for!
He sows confusion by standing on the sidelines and smiling like a Cheshire Cat.
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Robert_Bay
Guest
This article has some false and misleading statements.
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