Pope Francis agitates conservative U.S. Catholics

[ProVobis]

I’m guessing they used the results of last week’s elections to base their story. There really is nothing to suggest immigration and poverty will be at the top of the priority list for the next two years. It seems those who were concerned for same either do not exist or just didn’t vote.

 

[Rin]

I was using right wing as a synonym for conservative and left wing for liberal. The economic and societal views have been blended now in current politics but still in everyday speech people call political parties like the BNP far right even though economically they aren’t.

I’m aware “people” do that, but “people” are wrong.

Again I’m just curious do you think that both Kasper and Burke are equally orthodox? What about Lefebvre?

Orthodoxy is not a scalar, but a binary. Asking if someone is “equally” orthodox is therefore absurd.

Not being orthodox means being heterodox. A heterodox Cardinal would still be excommunicated, so no, I see neither Burke nor Kasper as “unequally orthodox”.

You may have meant whether I think both are equally traditional, in which case I would say no. Due to my liturgical preferences, I have been somewhat of a “Burke fan” myself. But I have to admit I find his conduct over the last few months polarizing, as I do Kasper’s. I find both to be publicly insubordinate, which is very untraditional; they should not have brought their quarrel to the media. Now I find Burke’s poorly hidden criticisms of the Pope to be even more distasteful than Kasper’s criticisms of Burke, but with a different Pope, they could have easily switched places. They’re more alike than you think.

Yet, I would kneel before both of them and kiss their rings - they are Princes of the Church, and deserve my utmost respect. And as I said, I believe they are both of good will, and both want the best for the Church. I dislike discussing them in these terms, so this will be my last post on the matter in this thread.

As for Lefevbre, he was not excommunicated for heresy, but for disobedience. He was orthodox. He was however far from “thinking with the Church”, but that does not make one a heretic. That said, his course of action was deeply untraditional, and a few centuries ago, I believe the FSSPX would indeed have become a schismatic church. They have benefited from the leniency they so despise.

But orthodox or not, he died excommunicated. I pray for him, and sincerely hope God looks upon him with mercy. As should we all.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I know something about moving on to being non practicing in the CC. What you say is not limited to TEC. But I haven’t moved on to nothing. I’m still Christian. I’ve even attended Roman Mass since Easter just so you don’t paint me as having only gone on the 2 major holidays. I love and welcome the gentler tone of the Holy Father Pope Francis and of the likes of Cardinal Kasper. But I’m not convinced conservatives are offering the same tone or what the tone of the next Pope will be. So I remain in search for a more progressive community in which to worship. Not for a social club. I believe in one God and in Jesus just as you do.

Hello Sy Noe–and Welcome Back! :tiphat: I’m glad you decided to start attending Mass again.

I think I know a little about being where you are. I was away from the Catholic Church for 7 years, during which time I attended Protestant services with my husband, (whose former denomination was ELCA.)

As I read through this thread, it’s clear I grew up in a different diocese and different time from many here. I grew up shortly after Vatican II. The current pope seems remarkably similar to some priests I knew. We heard quite often that the Catholic Church was “going to change”. Most Catholics around my age expected the Church to accept contraception and ordination of women, etc. I left the Church the first time because I was hurt when a priest told my Protestant husband couldn’t take communion in the Catholic Church. I was quite surprised to learn that was the official Church teaching. It took me many years to sort through what the Church teaches–and much of that happened after I returned.

I left and returned to the Church when JPII was pope. As I tell some of my protestant friends, my trust is not in the pope. My trust is in Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

 

[zz912]

You asked if someone who violates the Catholic faith’s doctrine is living a Christian life. And the quotes explain how someone can be a Christian and have God and His Holy Spirit with them even when they don’t profess the Catholic faith in its entirety.

That is talking about someone who is not a member of the Catholic Church, who was not raised Catholic and doesn’t know any better. They are responsible for living to the truth that they have, and hopefully come into the fullness of truth in the Church.

But that still doesn’t answer my question. Is someone who violates Church doctrine living a Christian life? (please don’t muddy the waters again, I am obviously asking about someone who knows what the Church teaches).

 

[Sy_Noe]

That is talking about someone who is not a member of the Catholic Church, who was not raised Catholic and doesn’t know any better. They are responsible for living to the truth that they have, and hopefully come into the fullness of truth in the Church.

But that still doesn’t answer my question. Is someone who violates Church doctrine living a Christian life? (please don’t muddy the waters again, I am obviously asking about someone who knows what the Church teaches).

Well in that case I don’t believe anyone who knows what the Church teaches and fully believes it, would leave the faith. That would be foolish, don’t you think, if they fully believed it. So I would answer those of us who do, lack the faith you have. But we may live a Christian life just as others who do not believe the faith in its entirety can be with God and His Holy Spirit and so forth as described in those CCC quotes I earlier answered with. You may not like this answer either. But that’s okay. I’m not going to keep answering the same question just because you might not like the answer though. We can agree to disagree. It is not you Whom I must answer to anyway. Only God knows any of our hearts and souls and I trust He has the capability of understanding our minds as well. And it is in His merciful hands any of us can only have faith our souls shall rest. Peace be with you,

 

[Sy_Noe]

Hello Sy Noe–and Welcome Back! :tiphat: I’m glad you decided to start attending Mass again.

I think I know a little about being where you are. I was away from the Catholic Church for 7 years, during which time I attended Protestant services with my husband, (whose former denomination was ELCA.)

As I read through this thread, it’s clear I grew up in a different diocese and different time from many here. I grew up shortly after Vatican II. The current pope seems remarkably similar to some priests I knew. We heard quite often that the Catholic Church was “going to change”. Most Catholics around my age expected the Church to accept contraception and ordination of women, etc. I left the Church the first time because I was hurt when a priest told my Protestant husband couldn’t take communion in the Catholic Church. I was quite surprised to learn that was the official Church teaching. It took me many years to sort through what the Church teaches–and much of that happened after I returned.

I left and returned to the Church when JPII was pope. As I tell some of my protestant friends, my trust is not in the pope. My trust is in Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

gardenwithkids, I can’t really say I have ever quit attending Mass completely and that I never went at least some during the years. But thank you for such a kind and gentle post. You probably know more than a little then. I grew up in a different diocese and time too than it seems many here did. And around the time of Vatican II.

The current Pope actually does remind me somewhat of another Jesuit priest I knew back in my hometown. And somewhat of a Franciscan priest and another I knew too. I’ve also known priests who I might describe as reminding me less so. I was just watching earlier today though an episode on EWTN of believers journeying home to the CC. And the host, Marcus? pointed out that we can’t discern all teaching. That on some matters we must just believe. So it’s no wonder to me that it takes years and that much of what you have sorted thru occurred after you returned. Wherever the case with me ends up, I sure do wish you all the best and thank you again for your welcoming, uplifting and gentle post. God bless you and your husband and kids in the garden!