Pope Francis approves correction of words of the Lords Prayer and Gloria in Italian Missal

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At least, is the English going to match the Latin? “. . . et dimitte nobis debita nostra . . .”

D
 
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CTBcin said:
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Prodigal1984:
Yah well I’d like them to finally finished the new English translation of the Liturgy of the Hours that is to conform to the 2011 Missal translation
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Well, don’t hold your breath. The committee that does English translations is notoriously slow when it comes to new editions. When they say 5 years, that probably means 20.
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Not to mention that the chair of that committee has just been made Archbishop of Washington DC…
 
porthos11 said:
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Prodigal1984:
Okay I don’t like this. It has been how we have said this prayer for centuries. And it hasn’t hit English yet but I have read that is coming too. Why change what’s not broken? Is this even a translation from the Latin? I could be wrong how it should be in Italian as I’m not fluent and it could mean be translated to something else in another language.

Pope Francis Approves Changes to Lord's Prayer & Gloria of Italian Missal | uCatholic
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As for the “makes theological sense” and “God does not lead us to temptation”, well.

The Greek says “bring”. Do not bring us to temptation.

Popes do not trump the inspired word of God for their own comfort.

Heaven forbid Pope Francis gets his hands on the English translation. Really.

If he wants to catechize, then catechize. But do not promulgate bad translations. It’s 1973 all over again.
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Translation is not one-to-one, and moving literally from koine Greek or Latin to English is tricky. Sometimes the most literal word for word translation doesn’t carry the same meaning or connotation. There are times a literary translation can be of benefit.
 
Hoosier-Daddy said:
It’s good to know the big important issues are being dealt with.
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Yeah, this is how I’ve felt for years when they futz with wording changes to prayers and whether we all need to stand or kneel in the pew after Communion, while sex abuse cases, financial scandals etc kept hitting the newspapers.

It’s a safe bet that at my age I’m too old to learn new versions of the Our Father for private use. I reckon when prayers are said at Mass I can natter along with the crowd, but I have no desire to pray some new version of Our Father at home.

If necessary I’ll revert to the Latin.
 
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For a while now, the words “lead us not into temptation” have bothered me. When we pray the Our Father, remember we are speaking to God. I don’t believe that God leads us into temptation so why ask God not to? Saying “do not let us fall into temptation” or “strengthen us during times of temptation” ( which I say) seem more appropriate to me.
As far as changes in the Gloria, I like the new change simply because everyone is “beloved by God”.
Peace
 
  1. Pope Francis did not “change the words” - he authorized the change that was requested by Italian Bishops.
  2. The Spanish Lord’s prayer has always read like this. Where was the shock and outrage?
  3. Pope Benedict XVI was excoriated when the language of the English mass was corrected and updated a few years ago. Do we prefer the comfort of our error?
  4. Are we turning into LifeSiteNews or something? All paranoia all the time?
  5. Whole lot of murmuring going on. Far less prayer, as I see it.
 
Bravo.

The new Italian version will be worded similarly to the Spanish version.

It only has to do with the Italian dioceses and I guess at Italian language masses outside of Italy.
 
Seems to me that this is a time of growing division among people and in particular between those on the right/left sides of politics. Those perceived to be on the other side of the spectrum are quickly judged with having bad motives while those on “our team” have a wide leeway even when they are clearly doing wrong.

I share your concerns but I’m beginning to think that God is allowing a time of testing.
 
It’s already been changed in French; in France, I believe a year ago, and in French Canada the change came at the beginning of Advent 2018. Before the change we said “ne nous soumets pas à la tentation”, which means “do not submit us to temptation”.

Now, it has gone back to an older understanding but with new words. When I was a kid, it was “Ne nous laisse pas succomber à la tentation”, which translates to “Do not let us succumb to temptation”. That fits the “theology” that the changes are among for. But now with the most recent change it is “ne nous laisse pas entrer en tentation” which is “do not let us enter into temptation”. Both versions say essentially the same thing. What bugs me is, why, if they needed to change, could they not go back to the previous version? Anyone born before the 70s would remember it. Instead, I’ve found myself at Mass saying “ne nous sou…laisse pas entrer en tentation” far too many times, to my embarrassment!

My solution for the Liturgy of the Hours is to pray it in Latin, LOL! But even in Latin it’s questionable “ne nos inducas in tentationem”…
 
In France the change to the French Lord’s Prayer only occurred on the first Sunday of Advent 2017 and in Canada only this past Advent. Since I rarely have the occasion to attend a Mass in my mother tongue, I was caught off-guard at Midnight Mass and again this past Sunday when I went to Mass at the Cathedral in a Francophone diocese.

But “ne nous laisse pas entrer en tentation” more closely resembles the “ne nous laissez pas succomber à la tentation” that I recited for 10 years before the 1966 change. Although I contend that “let us not be tempted” and “let us not give in to temptation” have very different meanings.
 
I agree. Since we have no direct control over such events , He expects us to pray. What He receives in return is murmuring - about which our Lord had nothing good to say.
 
I believe from the Greek which it is based off it does say lead us not.
It refers some say to when Christ was being led into the wilderness and had trials. The Lord will at times lead us into times of trial. That is what bearing the cross is about. It isn’t like if we say the Prayer we will just be free from the temptation to sin.
 
You are correct, oddly I remember going to a catholic baptism and (being Lutheran at the time, 10 years ago), I was thrown off while reciting the Our Father with the Catholics and me saying « ne nous soummet pas à la tentation » while everyone said « ne nous laisse pas entrer en tentation » and was wondering where that came from.

But that was 10 years ago, So I had presumed the change was made then. I have no explanation… other than faulty memory or involuntary time travel…
 
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It DOES say “bring not” (me eisenenkes; in the active voice, meaning, the subject performing the action). The Greek clearly has the petition asking the subject (the Father) to refrain from performing an action (“to bring”).

As for “God does not lead into temptation”, well:

“Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.” - Matthew 4:1.

God does not lead into temptation?
 
steph03 said:
You are correct, oddly I remember going to a catholic baptism and (being Lutheran at the time, 10 years ago), I was thrown off while reciting the Our Father with the Catholics and me saying « ne nous soummet pas à la tentation » while everyone said « ne nous laisse pas entrer en tentation » and was wondering where that came from.

But that was 10 years ago, So I had presumed the change was made then. I have no explanation… other than faulty memory or involuntary time travel…
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Could have been one of the parishes where they do their own thing, not an infrequent thing in French. I was at Mass Sunday and none of the Ordinary of the Mass was according to the rubrics, none.
 
Yah.
Let’s not forget however this is a translation issue.
The Vatican largely leaves that up to local Bishops conferences these days.
Since Francis allowed Italy to do it, one might naturally wonder if it will have a domino effect.
I don’t think it would happen in the U.S. for a while because what is happening in Italy is they are finally releasing their new translation of the third typical edition. You know the one we did in 2011?
The Our Father may be changed down the road but it probably won’t happen until the USCCB requests it, if they do.
It isn’t like the Holy See translates.
They release the Latin typical edition and then conferences translate it. Or is Francis actually changing the Latin of this prayer as well which would mean it would effect all translations?
 
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Prodigal1984 said:
Yah.
Let’s not forget however this is a translation issue.
The Vatican largely leaves that up to local Bishops conferences these days.
Since Francis allowed Italy to do it, one might naturally wonder if it will have a domino effect.
I don’t think it would happen in the U.S. for a while because what is happening in Italy is they are finally releasing their new translation of the third typical edition. You know the one we did in 2011?
The Our Father may be changed down the road but it probably won’t happen until the USCCB requests it, if they do.
It isn’t like the Holy See translates.
They release the Latin typical edition and then conferences translate it. Or is Francis actually changing the Latin of this prayer as well which would mean it would effect all translations?
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One would hope that the Lord’s Prayer is too entrenched in English as in the Latin, due to its longstanding use over centuries that not even Episcopal Conferences would dare touch them.
 
observing said:
For a while now, the words “lead us not into temptation” have bothered me.
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When the US bishops of the church formerly known as Ruthenian promulgated a revised liturgy about a decade ago, they noted that a better translation of the Lord’s Prayer was quite possible, and noted that, for example, “Deliver us from evil” would be better translated as, “deliver us from the evil one.” They refrained from doing so, as the language was a source of unity among English speaking Christians, predating the reformation . . .

But my understanding is that your understanding is indeed closer to the meaning than modern English would suggest.

hawk
 
There was an attempt made to change the Lord’s Prayer in the rejected English translation of the altered second typical edition of the Roman Missal. Rome was not amused.
From the March 2002 Observations on the English-language Translation of the Roman Missal:
C. The Congregation in the course of its various contacts and consultations has encountered widespread indeed, virtually unanimous-opposition to the institution of any change in the wording of the Lord’s Prayer. More than one reader cited poignantly the experience of having seen this prayer coming to the lips of Christians who had otherwise appeared unconscious, its familiar wording having been learned by them from infancy. By contrast, the Mixed Commission’s justification for its changes, in its Third Progress Report on the Revision of the Roman Missal , seem inadequate and somewhat cerebral.
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