Pope Francis Assigns Vatican Office to Promote Women's Participation

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Having grown up seeing my mother as the head of the Women’s Guild having a tiff with the pastor (they made up later), I’ve never bought into the “good little women” myth.

My aunt and grandma were also not afraid to politely give any priest or nun a piece of their mind, or pull the kids out of some activity or even out of Catholic school if they thought it necessary.
 
I’ve never felt that women were anything but “equally dignified” within the Church. Roles might be different, but for me it was never a question of dignity.
 
The Pope is addressing women’s roles at the higher end of the Church, not just running fundraisers and cleaning the parish church.

Jim
 
I’ve often thought we ought to highlight some of our female saints better.

I happen to be a fan of my own patron saint in part for her being a woman (and not even a nun!) who essentially chewed out the pope and told him to get back to Rome already.
 
It is sad to see that feminists rebels are always attacking the Church.

When the Church has never been anti women but I think young men need to focused on more in the Church
 
mrsdizzyd said:
Perhaps they are thinking the woman shortage is in Vatican and diocesan positions?
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There most likely is a “shortage” in the Vatican positions since the majority of the jobs are run by priests & bishops.

But in most dioceses around the world, the majority of lay positions are filled with women.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
The Pope is addressing women’s roles at the higher end of the Church, not just running fundraisers and cleaning the parish church.

Jim
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Come on Jim. Women are doing FAR MORE than simply running fundraisers and clearing the parish churches.

Women are Pastoral Associates, Directors of Religious Education, Diocesan Directors of New Evangelization, Accountants, Directors of Music, Diocesan Directors of Public Relations, Catholic School teachers & principals, etc. Most jobs in my archdiocesan office (which are not filled by priests or deacons) are staffed by women.

NOW - if the goal is to have some more women involved at the Vatican and for the Diocese of Rome, then perhaps that’s a valid argument, since women are running things in dioceses all over the rest of the world.

God Bless
 
I think our dear St. Catherine did that well enough herself.

Seriously though, there are many among our female saints who defied people’s ideas of what a woman should do. But I think there really is a tendency for those who fit the models of traditional femininity to be the ones highlighted, or to be highlighted in ways that push them more towards that box.

I actually really struggled with the veneration of Mary over this. In some ways she can get presented as a sort of male fantasy woman - the perfect wife and mother who is nonetheless too pure to ever be sullied by sex (and CERTAINLY not the unfeminine idea of ever wanting or enjoying sex), the ever submissive, uncomplaining woman whose life is entirely centered on the men around her.

That is of course a disservice to our Lady.
 
DarkLight said:
But I think there really is a tendency for those who fit the models of traditional femininity to be the ones highlighted, or to be highlighted in ways that push them more towards that box.
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Not seeing this, especially in the era since 1970 when we’ve named four saints as female Doctors of the Church.

Aside from the “virgin martyr” and “wife in difficult marriage” saints, who do you see as fitting “traditional femininity”?

The vast majority of female saints seem to have been involved with founding and running religious orders, which was usually a challenging task on the order of founding and running a company.

The female saints who were mystics were often doubted and challenged and had to stand their ground in view of a lot of derision.

Even St. Gianna Beretta Molla, whose motherhood is emphasized, is still always portrayed with her white doctor’s coat on in the representations I’ve seen.
 
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I’m talking more of popular perception than necessarily the knowledge of those who studied the faith. Some of that may admittedly be due to changing views on femininity (for example, nursing used to be a very improper thing for a well bred lady to do). Most of what you’re mentioning would be entirely unknown to those who haven’t made some study of the faith.
 
Not until recently did women move into stronger places. Before Vatican II, forget it.

St Catherine of Siena wasn’t declared a Doctor of the Church until 1970 by Pope Paul VI. That was 590 years after she died.

She was followed by St Teresa of Avila(1500’s,) wasn’t declared a doctor of the Church until 1970 by Pope Paul VI.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Not until recently did women move into stronger places. Before Vatican II, forget it.

St Catherine of Siena wasn’t declared a Doctor of the Church until 1970 by Pope Paul VI. That was 590 years after she died.

She was followed by St Teresa of Avila(1500’s,) wasn’t declared a doctor of the Church until 1970 by Pope Paul VI.

Jim
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True. But even before Vatican II women were parish secretaries, organized all the parish events, taught Catechism classes, etc. Women (religious and lay) have always helped priests on the parish level.

At the Vatican, yes. There were no women working in the Vatican until Pope Pius XII, and there still isn’t a lot. But that’s also because everyone working there was either a Seminarian, Deacon, Priest, Bishop, or Cardinal, and today most still are.

Also, it’s not like nuns didn’t have power before Vatican II. There were plenty of priests and bishops who were afraid of Mother Superiors.

Plus, Vatican II was 50 years ago now. We have had 50 years of women move involved than ever before.

Again, The only place women are less involved is at the Vatican, and even that is growing.

However, I’m sorry, some people will not be happy unless they see a female pope (let alone female deacons, priests, bishops, cardinals, etc)

God bless.
 
My opinion is this: It doesn’t matter what your gender is if you’re going to “participate” in the Church, so long as you’re competent enough to be in such a position.

I don’t like the idea of hiring or encouraging people to participate in stuff just because they’re black, white, gay, female, asian etc. What I like is hiring the most competent people for the job or role or whatever.
 
Phil, you just agreed with my original post on what Pope Francis is doing by promoting women to higher levels within the Vatican.

Jim
 
Yes.

For example, in 2015, when Justin Trudeau chose his cabinet, he was asked to speak to the effect of how it was made up of 50% men and 50% women. He said something like “because it’s 2015.” I wouldn’t consider something like that sufficient. You choose the MOST COMPETENT people to be apart of your cabinet, not JUST because they’re female and you choose them for the sake of having half women.
 
phil19034 said:
NOW - if the goal is to have some more women involved at the Vatican and for the Diocese of Rome, then perhaps that’s a valid argument
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I would say that is a large part of the goal.

Certainly, there is a sense in which women are now and have (always?) done a lot of the work in the Church. (For example, when I look at my parish this past year, we had one male catechist and eleven female catechists; those attending Bible studies also reflect roughly the same ratio.)

But there are certain sectors in the Church that are skewed in the other direction. I could name at least ten or twenty contemporary male theologians for every one female theologian.

I think things have been shifting in the Vatican curial offices for the last several decades. The recent popes seem to have been asking the question of which curial roles need to be filled by someone in the clergy. I think that’s a good question to ask. And if they don’t need to be filled by clergy, then there’s no reason women can’t serve in that role.

As a man, I don’t particularly feel “pushed aside” by such efforts to intentionally seek out women’s voices within the Church.
 
I don’t see anything but good in the Pope’s effort to involve more women in decision making at the Vatican.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Phil, you just agreed with my original post on what Pope Francis is doing by promoting women to higher levels within the Vatican.

Jim
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I don’t have an issue with Pope Francis promoting women to higher levels within the Vatican. What I have an issue with is clericalizing women, which some people want to see happen.

I also object to the idea that women have no power in the Church, because women have the ear of more priests than men do.
 
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