Pope Francis Assigns Vatican Office to Promote Women's Participation

[Joe_5859]

what exactly is the higher end of the church?

I think he means working in various Vatican offices and congregations versus, say, volunteering at the local Catholic parish. In most parishes I have experience with, the workers “on the ground” tend to consist of more women than men. But when you get into places like the various Vatican dicasteries, that is not the case. It tends to be dominated by men and the clergy.

I do find it somewhat interesting. When it comes to something such as catechists, you tend to get a lot more women volunteering. But then when it comes to doing something like being an usher, you get a lot more men. These sorts of things just seem to happen.

 

[Lea101]

I was telling you to calm down bc the caps was not necessary and it makes you look as if you’re being very aggressive to that poster. You edited your posts. Thanks for the explanation though. Caps lock just sounds way too aggressive online and hence I got that impression.

Again, nobody here is saying that a woman is not important because she doesn’t have the title. It’s about why these titles/positions are not being given to women who are doing great work.

For example, Jane has done tremendous work in a company. But the company and the employees believe in rewarding a guy for Employee of the Month instead. This annoys Jane and other women. This does not mean that those who don’t receive the award aren’t important, but it’s the rationale behind it (that women are not allowed). They are angry not because they didn’t get the recognition, but because people feel that their gender matters when giving such awards.

In this conversation, they are talking about women in certain places that are not being respected enough despite their contributions. Hence the whole point in women in different cultures where sexism is higher.

I would also be interested in your take on the latter portion; there is and has been an imbalance for decades where things like ‘cleaning, cooking, child care, elder care’, etc. have been maintained by women. Do you not think that more men need to be appointed to these ministries, as they are vitally important

If men want to devote their time and energy in these roles, why not? They should not be ridiculed for service. They should not feel like they’re less of a man if they’re doing more feminine activities.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The point being that, according to you, unless a woman is recognized in exactly the way that a male is recognized, i.e. a ‘title’ like Doctor of the Church, then she isn’t ‘equal to’ a man?

I never said that and implying I did is wrong.

Men and Women are indeed different, but those in the power structure of the Church have always been men.

Jim

 

[phil19034]

but those in the power structure of the Church have always been men.

To be clear, the power structure of the Church has always be clerics. Ordained clergy or those who had received at least first tonsure and minor orders.

It was not all men or most men. It’s historically been clerics who had the official power.

However, again, I think you truly underestimate the power that a Mother Superior had.

God bless

 

[HolySpirit]

Frankly, I hope this leads to greater emphasis on developing a new generation of women’s religious vocations to once again fill the convents.

Women play such a vital role in the health of the church that their importance can not be understated. The service that they provide to society makes the world a better place and is vital in the outreach to grow our church.

Nuns are every bit as important as priests. It is time that dioceses understand this and assist in bringing this vocation back to the church.

Every closed convent damages the world.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Yes!

I am so so glad to see a renewed interest in women’s religious organizations in the US and in my diocese! We have a women’s vocation retreat coming up!

I am forever grateful for the Dominican Sisters who helped form my education.

 

[phil19034]

Most of those replying on here that are upset over this office are likely in the US, Canada, Australia, or parts of Europe where women do have positions in the Church other than cooking. cleaning, and teaching little children. Try looking at it from a universal perspective and realize that this isn’t all about you and your culture.

You might consider that it was created to help expand on the gifts of women in other nations, not just your own.

OK, I’ll bite.

What are women doing in the US, Canada, Australia, and western Europe that isn’t happening in your diocese (or the dioceses you are referring to)?

What jobs are women not doing that lay men are doing in these parts of the world. Please do not include jobs that are being handled by seminarians, deacons, priests, and bishops.

So again, please tell me what jobs are lay men doing in these dioceses that women are being prevented from?

Thank you and God bless!
Phil

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But those clerics have always been men.

Women were not part of it.

I’m not saying they should have been, back in those days.

However, in today’s world the Church is looking to be more inclusive toward women and having them have some say in the decision making process.

Jim

 

[phil19034]

But those clerics have always been men.

Well, that’s because women can’t be clerics.

The church used to never allow lay people to have any official position. That was not a discrimination against women. If anything, it was a “discrimination” against lay people.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yeah well except lay men could become priest and at one time, even if they were married.

Women have never been allowed to be ordained(I’m not arguing in favor of Women’s Ordination Here)
so they have not been part of the power structure.

That being said, there are times in Church history where women heavily influenced those in power.

St Catherine of Siena is an example, who convinced the Pope to move back to Rome.

Jim

 

[HolySpirit]

It sounds like you are diminishing the important role of nuns. It sounds like you are thinking that nuns should be ashamed for “settling” to be nuns.

Being a nun is every bit as honorable as being a priest or bishop.

 

[grotto]

Agree. There is a reason for the separation of roles in our Holy Apolstolic, Roman Catholic Faith. We need to concentrate more on broadening those roles to keep men and women busy working for Our Lord. The shortage of men as Priests is due to the ravage of evil everywhere - not just certain countries or people. Prayer and back to the basics will be a blessing for all. Discrimination isn’t a condition we must tolerate along with any other sinful tendency. Every individual soul that labors for Our Lord is rewarded - not a worldly reward, not power or applause. Maybe Pope Francis should just label this effort as a Vatican Office to Promote Participation.

 

[stpurl]

Yes, that sounds like a non sequitur though. What in Catholicism (please show me the specific references) dictates that being part of the "power structure’ is necessary for anyone, man or woman? What part of Jesus’ teaching mandates that "because the Church has a power structure, it must not and cannot be limited to ‘men’?

Jim, how do you feel about 'women’s ordination"?

 

[HolySpirit]

That is wonderful. Where I live, I have only heard of individual convent’s having them. They should have a vocations office and hold recruiting events across the diocese.

It is great to hear about your experience at school. I shake my head every time I hear about people complaining about the cost of Catholic education. If religious were still teaching you could easily cut the expense by 50%. And you could guarantee that children would be learning from people who loved God, loved the faith, and loved the children.

 

[phil19034]

Yeah well except lay men could become priest and at one time, even if they were married.

Women have never been allowed to be ordained(I’m not arguing in favor of Women’s Ordination Here)
so they have not been part of the power structure.

That being said, there are times in Church history where women heavily influenced those in power.

St Catherine of Siena is an example, who convinced the Pope to move back to Rome.

Jim

I would argue that there were not “times in church history.”

I would argue that women have ALWAYS heavily influenced those in power. Women have always been confidants, advisers, etc to the people in power. Either as their role as wife, mistress, sister, mother, etc; women have always had an influence on those in power.

Finally, when looking at history, it is very important not to look at history with modern eyes. Women lacked power not for what today we would call sexist reasons. But, rather I would argue, for practical reasons.

1. In general, women were often pregnant, nursing, or raising young children. Except for the wives of nobility (and later the rich), most women did not have wet nurses. They had to nurse their own kids.
2. In ancient times, and really until the Renaissance leaders often had to fight in the wars. And back then, most did not want to see mothers and daughters fighting (when it could be avoided).

So, honestly, I think really think this developed naturally, and not due to sexist or cultural basis. Otherwise, we would have cultures where the women were the hunters/warriors and men stayed at home taking care of the domestic jobs.

God bless.

 

[stpurl]

Ah, I didn’t see this response of yours before I posted, since I was addressing an earlier post of yours.

May I respectfully ask, if you are not arguing in favor of women’s ordination, exactly what it is that you are seeking here?

If a ‘power structure’ (my GOD, the fact that one can, with a straight face, even use those words along 'Catholic faith" itself is an abomination) has historically been open ‘only to men’, are you saying that the ‘power structure’ needs to be increased to 'outside ordained men"?
In that case, does that not also open up the ‘power structure’ not ‘just’ to women, but to ‘non -ordained men’ as well?

IOW, let’s say the Church creates 10 positions in various aspects which give the ‘prestige or power’ equivalent in 2 to ‘a priest or monsignor’, in 4 to a 'bishop, one for the 3rd world, one for the 2nd, and two for 1st world), 1 to a ‘world class theologian’, and 3 to 'cardinals, one 3rd world, one 2nd world, one 1st world).

These are to be held by women, to give them a ‘hold’ in the ‘power structure’.
So, what about the 'unordained men?

Shouldn’t they have an equivalent say here?

If not, why not?

If so, then why the huge emphasis on ‘creating for women’ (not in the 'power structure of the Church") and not for the 'non ordained, male and female, who are
equally not in the power structure of the Church?

The whole thing reeks of secular ‘spin’.

Yes, if there is an inequity, create positions for non-ordained and let the best person be chosen. But it is quite blatantly obvious that this ‘promoting women’s participation’ is a slap in the face to women who participate ‘outside the power structure’ and are perceived thereby as ‘second class’.

In looking back through the history of Christianity, looking at the saints, male and female, it is surprising how little influence a person had because of where ‘he’ was in the power structure of the Church.
St. Francis? Well hardly.
St. Dominic? Ditto.
St. Joan of Arc? au contraire, Pierre. . .

Etc.
Most of the saints of the ages were martyrs. Many of them (even Popes) suffered imprisonment. Many spent their lives serving the poor, or evangelizing to distant lands. and many of them were women. One day we shall all ‘see’.

 

[stpurl]

I’m surprised you didn’t call me ‘hysterical’. You know, disagreeing with a post or poster does not equate to ‘throwing a fit’. Can you possibly use the term ‘disagree’ or will you likewise not disappoint me by your response?

 

[7_Sorrows]

7_Sorrows:

what exactly is the higher end of the church?

I think he means working in various Vatican offices and congregations versus, say, volunteering at the local Catholic parish. In most parishes I have experience with, the workers “on the ground” tend to consist of more women than men. But when you get into places like the various Vatican dicasteries, that is not the case. It tends to be dominated by men and the clergy.

I do find it somewhat interesting. When it comes to something such as catechists, you tend to get a lot more women volunteering. But then when it comes to doing something like being an usher, you get a lot more men. These sorts of things just seem to happen.

i see. that does make sense. yes, in my parish men are mostly ushers and mainy women work in the office.

 

[stpurl]

May I ask, please, exactly ‘what other countries’ and exactly what women (and men) are doing there?

 

[phil19034]

Catechesis of adults, chairing committees, heading up outreach to the community. Those lay positions are things that we don’t give a second thought to in the countries I mentioned are things that Catholic lay women in other countries aren’t generally doing.

But who is doing them? I would bet it’s not lay men.

We don’t have a right to demand that seminarians, deacons, priests & bishops give up responsibilities to lay people.

How about you please provide concrete examples of places where LAY MEN are doing things that LAY WOMEN cannot.

NOTE: please do not reference altar servers, lectors, and EMHC (where a priest has the right to limit entry to the sanctuary to men during mass).

God Bless.