Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

[JReducation]

They know most people only read the headline. Accurate content but with a false headline means they were probably deliberately deceptive.

It could be. My guess is that the false headline is more attractive than the actual letter. My observation is that those responsible for editing always look for something that will catch your attention.

But what if you are raised to believe bad IS good? Example: killing the infidel is good because it is a way of honoring God. Or what if you don’t know the difference between right and wrong. Example: there is nothing wrong with sexual promiscuity or abortion. Does that make those things “acceptable” because they simply don’t know or weren’t taught correctly? Please help me to understand.

Go slowly here. We’re talking about two different things.

Let’s just take one example, abortion.

Abortion is a gravely sinful act.

Not everyone who procures an abortion or who performs an abortion is guilty of sin.

There is a distinction between the action and culpability. An action can be very wrong and the person committing the action may be very culpable, somewhat culpable or not culpable. It depends on his knowledge and his freedom. You have to know the gravity of what you’re doing. You have to freely choose to do it.

Let’s take the case of abortion. I run a program for dads in crisis pregnancies. Most of my dads are not free. They are pressured by family, doctors, economics, fear, misinformation, peers and many other things that can impair their judgment. When they come to us, the first thing that we try to do is discern with them why they want an abortion. We don’t jump into “Abortion is a mortal sin for which you can be excommunicated.” That’s the worse possible approach.

Once the dad starts talking, you’ll hear the triggers. Then we respond with the alternatives appropriate for those triggers. If the problem is fear that they can’t afford a baby, we place our material assistance at their disposal until the baby in one year old We mean everything from food to toys. The the problem is fear of parents, we deal with their parents ourselves. We always win too.

My point is that the action remains a heinous crime and grave sin. But the person who chooses to get an abortion and chooses under pressure, is rarely culpable of grave sin and may even be totally innocent. I know people whose doctors scare the living daylights out of them. This happens often. They choose abortion, trusting that the doctor is right.

That’s how that works.

A person who does not believe in God, has no religious moral grounding. The best he can do is to follow his conscience. If he’s honest and if he’s not pressured and if he knows all the facts, this conscience will point him toward the good.

We have to pray that such people come to believe and that in the meantime, they will get all the facts before they make serious choices and that they will listen to the voice of conscience. St. Augustine once said that conscience always points toward the good. The problem is that we don’t always listen to our own conscience.

 

[einna]

Bro. what about the Jews? Of course, most know that Christ existed but they do not believe He is the Savior and many have said it is only through Jesus Christ that we will be saved. So does that mean that if the Jews, who are very devoted to God, do not accept Jesus as their savior, they will not get into heaven? Like us, they are following what they have learned and believe is true. A Jew could never convert me and I would think I could not convert a faithful Jew.

 

[ephesians2]

Oh man. The protestants are going to have a field day! I’ve spent the better part of my Catholic life saying that the Church does not teach that you earn your way to heaven but rather that through Works AND Faith we are saved. Turns out. It is only works…

Do most Catholics believe it is just works? Or was this a sarcastic post.

 

[ephesians2]

"Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience. "

This statement does not make sense to me. How would you go to God with a sincere and contrite heart, but at the same time, not be seeking Him? If you are not seeking God then you are not going to “go to God”. This makes no sense. For those who do not believe in God, obeying their “conscience” is basically obeying the “fleshly desires” unless they are being called by the Spirit. I’ll read the rest of the posts, maybe my questions are answered in some of them.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

"Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience. "

This statement does not make sense to me. How would you go to God with a sincere and contrite heart, but at the same time, not be seeking Him? If you are not seeking God then you are not going to “go to God”. This makes no sense. For those who do not believe in God, obeying their “conscience” is basically obeying the “fleshly desires” unless they are being called by the Spirit. I’ll read the rest of the posts, maybe my questions are answered in some of them.

This is what I do not understand.
God tells us there is a narrow gate and a wide gate. He tells us many will choose the wide gate, He tells us that the only way to heaven is through Him.
Then the Church tells us that if we die in Mortal Sin, we cannot go to heaven. The Church gives the sacraments that help cleanse and repent of Mortal Sin. Now, it is hard for me, a God believing, sacrament receiving, Catholic to be free of Mortal sin. Even when I have the scripture that I read every day, the Church, and a full relationship in prayer life with God. I am by no means the best Catholic person out there. But even the Church recognizes that it is almost impossible to have lived a life free from sin. So much so that we honor Mary for it and the Church requires us to go to confession at least once a year. All of us, even the Priests, Bishops and future saints.

Salvation, we can see is hard if you are a Catholic.
I cannot think of a Catholic I have ever met that did not need confession or who was assured of salvation.

But an atheist need only appeal to his conscience?

My point is that the Church says that I cannot go a year without needing to be reconciled with God. But somehow all those morally strait, saintly atheists are being guided by a conscience that I am unable to have. I must go to Mass, or confess, not use ABC, or confess, not take the Lords name in vain, Or confess, not procure an abortion, or confess. ETC.
However an atheist somehow can answer to his conscience in the above and not be held accountable.

The Church is very careful to always go out of Her way not to declare someone in hell. And the Church has a rigorous process about saying who is in heaven. When the Church canonizes an avowed atheist, then maybe I will put any stock into all this nonsense.

If the pope meant atheists/nonbelievers can be saved then we need to start seeing saints like.

St. Mohammed
St. Buhdda
St. Dawkins

Go ahead fellow Catholics, start up a campaign for St. Mohammed and see how far it gets you!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Do most Catholics believe it is just works? Or was this a sarcastic post.

Historically Catholics have taught that we are saved by faith and works. Some protestants have taken the position of only faith or sola fide.

 

[clem456]

Why can’t we keep it simple?

““The true saint is the man or woman who can worship and serve God in the here and now, while entrusting all else into the hands of Divine Providence. In other words, the true saint does not carry the weight of the world on his shoulders, because he knows that he is not God. There is only one God and it isn’t me.””

A wonderful sense of peace came from this.
Thanks Brother!

 

[clem456]

Pope Francis’ Letter to the Founder of “La Repubblica” Italian Newspaper
English translation from Zenit:

zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-letter-to-the-founder-of-la-repubblica-italian-newspaper

This is a striking quote from the Zenit article:

To begin with, I will not speak, not even to one who believes, of “absolute” truth, in the sense that absolute is what is inconsistent, what is deprived of any relationship. Now truth, according to the Christian faith, is the love of God for us in Jesus Christ. Therefore, truth is a relationship! So true is it that each one of us also takes up the truth and expresses it from him/herself: from his/her history and culture, from the situation in which he/she lives, etc. This doesn’t mean that truth is variable or subjective, quite the opposite. But is means that it is given to us always and only as a way and a life. Did not Jesus himself say: “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life”? In other words, truth being altogether one with love, requires humility and openness to be sought, received and expressed. Therefore, it’s necessary to understand one another well on the terms and, perhaps, to come out of the tight spots of opposition … absolute, to pose the question again in depth. I think that this is today absolutely necessary to initiate that serene and constructive dialogue…

 

[einna]

A wonderful sense of peace came from this.
Thanks Brother!

Yes Bro. I think sometimes when someone need to know and study everything the Church has ever said they loose focus on the most important points. I am going through a group study on The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius and sometimes when I get on this site I feel like I belong to a completely different faith. I was raised that the most important things were to love God, yourself, and others.

I have a hard time understanding why any one would care if a good, caring Atheist got to go to heaven. If you trust in God, you should not need to know why. I practice my faith because I believe in it. My main focus is not being saved or who else will be saved, it is serving God here and now the best I can, loving God, myself, and other whether they are believer or not.

 

[clem456]

Yes Bro. I think sometimes when someone need to know and study everything the Church has ever said they loose focus on the most important points. I am going through a group study on The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius and sometimes when I get on this site I feel like I belong to a completely different faith. I was raised that the most important things were to love God, yourself, and others.

I have a hard time understanding why any one would care if a good, caring Atheist got to go to heaven. If you trust in God, you should not need to know why. I practice my faith because I believe in it. My main focus is not being saved or who else will be saved, it is serving God here and now the best I can, loving God, myself, and other whether they are believer or not.

I think this is wonderfully expressed in Mt 20:1-16 which ends with the vineyard owner saying:

15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

 

[Elizabeth502]

I was raised that the most important things were to love God, yourself, and others.

Yep. John 14:15: “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

My main focus is not being saved or who else will be saved, it is serving God here and now the best I can, loving God, myself, and other whether they are believer or not.

True. And that is why (we are told, including by Jesus) that there will be different standards at the Particular Judgments for each one of us, as to who has loved and not. Atheists who have acted out of ignorance will not have the same standard applied to them as apply to us, as Catholics with the benefit of the fully revealed Truth, transmitted by Christ’s Church, the living authority of Christ.

 

[ephesians2]

This is what I do not understand.
God tells us there is a narrow gate and a wide gate. He tells us many will choose the wide gate, He tells us that the only way to heaven is through Him.
Then the Church tells us that if we die in Mortal Sin, we cannot go to heaven. The Church gives the sacraments that help cleanse and repent of Mortal Sin. Now, it is hard for me, a God believing, sacrament receiving, Catholic to be free of Mortal sin. Even when I have the scripture that I read every day, the Church, and a full relationship in prayer life with God. I am by no means the best Catholic person out there. But even the Church recognizes that it is almost impossible to have lived a life free from sin. So much so that we honor Mary for it and the Church requires us to go to confession at least once a year. All of us, even the Priests, Bishops and future saints.

Salvation, we can see is hard if you are a Catholic.
I cannot think of a Catholic I have ever met that did not need confession or who was assured of salvation.

But an atheist need only appeal to his conscience?

My point is that the Church says that I cannot go a year without needing to be reconciled with God. But somehow all those morally strait, saintly atheists are being guided by a conscience that I am unable to have. I must go to Mass, or confess, not use ABC, or confess, not take the Lords name in vain, Or confess, not procure an abortion, or confess. ETC.
However an atheist somehow can answer to his conscience in the above and not be held accountable.

The Church is very careful to always go out of Her way not to declare someone in hell. And the Church has a rigorous process about saying who is in heaven. When the Church canonizes an avowed atheist, then maybe I will put any stock into all this nonsense.

If the pope meant atheists/nonbelievers can be saved then we need to start seeing saints like.

St. Mohammed
St. Buhdda
St. Dawkins

Go ahead fellow Catholics, start up a campaign for St. Mohammed and see how far it gets you!

VERY interesting thoughts!

 

[ephesians2]

Yes Bro. I think sometimes when someone need to know and study everything the Church has ever said they loose focus on the most important points. I am going through a group study on The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius and sometimes when I get on this site I feel like I belong to a completely different faith. I was raised that the most important things were to love God, yourself, and others.

I have a hard time understanding why any one would care if a good, caring Atheist got to go to heaven. If you trust in God, you should not need to know why. I practice my faith because I believe in it. My main focus is not being saved or who else will be saved, it is serving God here and now the best I can, loving God, myself, and other whether they are believer or not.

So you are not concerned with your salvation? With whether or not you will end up in hell? Or your dear family members salvation or a good friend? This does not make sense to me either. Christ tells commands us to “Go and Tell” and if you are not concerned with others salvation then there is no need to go and tell. How do you “love others” if you are not concerned with where they are going to end up when they die?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

So are you telling me that because I fought to overcome a life threatening illness knowing I was meant to have a child. That I prayed about having artificial insemination and spoken to a priest, only to continue to feel God wanted me to have a child,and because I went through with it I should repent for having my son and if I don’t I will not be forgiven. I am just trying to understand your thinking.

It’s not my job to judge you, or any other human being (myself included – that’s the point – think about it!), and I don’t know your circumstances at all. What did the priest tell you? Are you married? etc., etc …

However, we can and do know what the Church has said is good, and what is sinful, and so we can judge actions objectively.

Yes, it is a sin to have a baby outside of marriage, and outside of the “usual” way of conception. That doesn’t mean that your baby isn’t a blessing. God takes sin, and even “evil” (not saying that this qualifies as “evil”) and creates good out of it. Heck, God even used Juda’s having a child (Perez) with his daughter-in-law (Tamar), thinking she was a prostitute (a different sin than sex with a daughter-in-law, but still a grave sin) as part of the lineage of Christ.

So, and I say this not to be mean in the slightest, yes, your example could (if I understand the details correctly) be a good example of what I mean.

Many women today purposefully have children outside of marriage.

If someone has a child illicitly and sees this child (correctly) as a blessing from God, they may not be able to consider their actions sinful, and may not be willing to consider repentance at all.

I hope you take this in the spirit in which it was offered: not judgmentally, but with charity. I don’t wish to offend, but you asked my opinion.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Yep. John 14:15: “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

True. And that is why (we are told, including by Jesus) that there will be different standards at the Particular Judgments for each one of us, as to who has loved and not. Atheists who have acted out of ignorance will not have the same standard applied to them as apply to us, as Catholics with the benefit of the fully revealed Truth, transmitted by Christ’s Church, the living authority of Christ.

Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Has anyone here ever read the Narnia series?
In “The Last Battle” (an allegorical story of the end of time), when Emith (a just boy whose culture worshipped Tash, a demon) meets Aslan (the allegorical figure representing Christ), he is afraid.
However, Aslan assures him that:

Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?’ I said, ‘Lord, thou knowest how much I understand.’ But I said also (for the truth constrained me), ‘Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days.’ ‘Beloved,’ said the Glorious One, ‘unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.’

Lewis was a genius in many respects.

 

[Elizabeth502]

This is what I do not understand.
God tells us there is a narrow gate and a wide gate. He tells us many will choose the wide gate.

And the point is, HD, that it is even more difficult for an Atheist to enter the narrow gate than for a believing and faithfully practicing (yet sinful) Catholic. The Pope speaks of possibilities, not probabilities.

Then the Church tells us that if we die in Mortal Sin, we cannot go to heaven. The Church gives the sacraments that help cleanse and repent of Mortal Sin. Now, it is hard for me, a God believing, sacrament receiving, Catholic to be free of Mortal sin.

And even harder for those without benefit of sacramental grace or even a weekly community of affiliation and worship (such as Jews and Protestants have, etc.) to enter the narrow gate. Have you ever been a non-practicing Catholic? I have, and I can tell you my propensity to sin (of all kinds) was far greater then than now. I became conscious of how easy it was to sin, given how everyone around me was doing it, too. Eventually my conscience became dulled (something the Church warns us about, and why She stresses a formed conscience in line with Church teaching). We easily use the excuse of “conscience” to rationalize those sins which are the most comfortable. The Devil manipulates our sense of comfort, and how much more so when we don’t have the instruments of grace within our reach.

But even the Church recognizes that it is almost impossible to have lived a life free from sin…Salvation, we can see is hard if you are a Catholic.

You’ve answered your own objection. Harder still (finish the sentence) if you are not.

Again, the Pope did not quantify any probabilities in his statement. He merely brought up the possibility, the same possibility which is part of long-standing Catholic doctrine. I think the problem is that many have jumped to the conclusion (missing a step) by over-emphasizing the word “need” (or “have to”). Technically speaking, a person does not “need” to assent to faith in God to enter Heaven. But it sure is damn hard without it.

Let me give you an example from my own life. While I have never personally had a close relationship with (probably never even met one who was) an avowed Atheist, who rejected even the concept of God wholeheartedly. But I have met and had many close relationships with many Agnostics. And many of those are, have been, were, very good human beings, trying to live a moral life as best they can or could. I think there is a reason why the moral compass was still alive and well in them: it was the aspect of tentative non-belief, which the Atheist does not have. The Agnostic is merely not convinced that there is a God. This is just my dumb pet theory, but I think that window of openness allows them also to ‘hear’ the pull of conscience more easily. They have left open a door to God, even consciously.

But an atheist need only appeal to his conscience?

I think Bro JR explained that best. If your conscience is your highest authority, and you have no objective authority to measure that against, then that is all you can be judged by. Make no mistake, though, it is a slippery slope out there, without benefit of an objective source for Truth. And never more than now, in a contemporary world which excuses every form of evil, and every form which gets supported by a corrupted media which encourages people to rationalize their comforts as “goods.”

 

[einna]

It’s not my job to judge you, or any other human being (myself included – that’s the point – think about it!), and I don’t know your circumstances at all. What did the priest tell you? Are you married? etc., etc …

However, we can and do know what the Church has said is good, and what is sinful, and so we can judge actions objectively.

Yes, it is a sin to have a baby outside of marriage, and outside of the “usual” way of conception. That doesn’t mean that your baby isn’t a blessing. God takes sin, and even “evil” (not saying that this qualifies as “evil”) and creates good out of it. Heck, God even used Juda’s having a child (Perez) with his daughter-in-law (Tamar), thinking she was a prostitute (a different sin than sex with a daughter-in-law, but still a grave sin) as part of the lineage of Christ.

So, and I say this not to be mean in the slightest, yes, your example could (if I understand the details correctly) be a good example of what I mean.

Many women today purposefully have children outside of marriage.

If someone has a child illicitly and sees this child (correctly) as a blessing from God, they may not be able to consider their actions sinful, and may not be willing to consider repentance at all.

I hope you take this in the spirit in which it was offered: not judgmentally, but with charity. I don’t wish to offend, but you asked my opinion.

I did not feel you judged me. I was married and because of a previous illness could not get pregnant on my own. My doctor informed me that I should be able to get pregnant through artificial insemination. After considering all the facts, I spoke to my priest, who in the end could not come up with an evil aspect to the process, remained me what the Church teaches and why, and to pray and follow my conscious, which I did. It was only today that I read the CCC on moral conscious and I believe it fits. I am not saying I disagree with the Church, I simply do not see what I did as a sin or hurting anyone at all.

 

[einna]

So you are not concerned with your salvation? With whether or not you will end up in hell? Or your dear family members salvation or a good friend? This does not make sense to me either. Christ tells commands us to “Go and Tell” and if you are not concerned with others salvation then there is no need to go and tell. How do you “love others” if you are not concerned with where they are going to end up when they die?

If being concerned about my salvation was my first priority then I would be practicing my faith for self serving reasons, not to honor God. I practice my faith to honor God not to get a reward in the end. I find that sad that it does not make sense. Yes Christ does tell us go and tell and I do. I tell anyone I have a conversation with that I am Catholic and if they are open to learning about my faith I teach them; however, I respect that they may have their own beliefs that are different than mine, so I do not force my faith on them, that would be completely disrespectful and I wouldn’t want them doing it to me.

My brother who is no longer in the Catholic Church once tried to insist on try to “teach” or convert us to his beliefs. It became badgering and bullying because he chose to “tell” us over and over every time he saw us, even after we told him to stop. He felt like he was serving God, we found him to be disrespectful and rude, especially to my mother who is 87 yr. and Catholic all her life.

I work at a Catholic high school where many different religions are represented among our student, from Catholic to Protestant, atheist to Muslim. All are required to attend Mass, prayer services, and take 4 year of Theology, but no one tries to convert any of the student to be Catholic. We live and teach are faith to the students and if they want to learn more we are happy to help them, but never are they told they should be Catholic. This is a Jesuit school, so if you think they are wrong, I hate to tell you but their are Jesuit schools all over the world doing it the same way.

People sometime use the Bible too much to convert instead of teach. When they use the Bible that way it often becomes judging which does not help convert anyone.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I work at a Catholic high school where many different religions are represented among our student, from Catholic to Protestant, atheist to Muslim. All are required to attend Mass, prayer services, and take 4 year of Theology, but no one tries to convert any of the student to be Catholic. We live and teach are faith to the students and if they want to learn more we are happy to help them, but never are they told they should be Catholic. This is a Jesuit school, so if you think they are wrong, I hate to tell you but their are Jesuit schools all over the world doing it the same way.

Just as there are other Catholic religious communities running similar schools:

The Christian Brothers
Sisters of Saint Joseph
Congregations of the Holy Cross
Dominicans
Holy Names Sisters
Marists
Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur
Salesians
Schools Sisters of Notrre Dame
Sisters of the Sacred Heart

and separately, there are thousands of diocesan schools linked to parishes, all with mixed student bodies from varying backgrounds and allegiances.

The Jesuits are not unique in their approach to non-Catholics attending their schools. Each religious community, including the Jesuits obviously, has its own charism and special spirituality which it applies to serving others. As an important note, however, the spirituality of none of them overrides the moral authority and precepts of the Roman Church.

 

[einna]

Just as there are other Catholic religious communities running similar schools:

The Christian Brothers
Sisters of Saint Joseph
Congregations of the Holy Cross
Dominicans
Holy Names Sisters
Marists
Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur
Salesians
Schools Sisters of Notrre Dame
Sisters of the Sacred Heart

and separately, there are thousands of diocesan schools linked to parishes, all with mixed student bodies from varying backgrounds and allegiances.

The Jesuits are not unique in their approach to non-Catholics attending their schools. Each religious community, including the Jesuits obviously, has its own charism and special spirituality which it applies to serving others. As an important note, however, the spirituality of none of them overrides the moral authority and precepts of the Roman Church.

Yes Elizabeth, I am quite aware there are other other religious communities; however, because I have never experienced them I would not dare to speak on how they run their schools. I am not in any way implying that the Jesuit are any better than any other Catholic school or church, and from what I said I don’t think I implied that they override the moral authority of the Church, did I?