Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Then you were teaching them wrong. You don’t get to heaven by works or faith, but by grace through faith working in love.

If that is true then great! But where is that in the CCC or the Bible?
(I hate to sound like a Protestant here)

But where are you getting that from?

 

[crazzeto]

Who are all these people he is winning over to the light? Atheists?

Look, we can explain away what the Pope said, we can give it context. But it is what it is. He said it. One only has to follow one’s conscience. You can talk about “well formed” or some sort of qualifier, but that is not what he said.

This will be used by many to justify many things. From ABC to homosexual marriage.

What I do not understand is why this does not apply to those who disagree with the church on other issues. Why is it that one need only follow ones conscience if you do not believe in God or his Church but if you say you are Catholic then it is all or nothing. It would seem the wide gate is the easier path to heaven here. No, confession needed as long as I am true to my conscience. This should apply to Liberal Catholics and Traditional Sedevacantitsis as well.

I would suggest that you should always understand what the Pope says in context of the constant teaching of the Church. Would you understand the councils in any other way? The Popes comments here should be taken in the same context, the context of the constant teaching of the church.

 

[pepipop]

But doesn’t that presume a properly formed conscience? Why can’t an abortophile claim that her “conscience” allows her to kill her child?

Precisely my concern, as this query was posed to me by someone who has left the church, i.e. if someone follows their conscience and believes in God, that should be sufficient. However, what is ‘conscience’, he had also sent me a video of a christian politician in Australia who had recently backed SS marriage, after considering the issue with ‘his’ conscience.

So I would agree ‘conscience’ is a very loose term and different people can assume they are doing no wrong and listening to ‘their’ consciences.

 

[Robert_Sock]

No, he didn’t. But, when he talks about moral and theological issues, he has a very bad habit of saying things that easily lend themselves to misinterpretation. Although he probably did not intend to do so, he gave the impression that accepting Christ is not essential for salvation.

The Church’s teaching should be very simple: “Christ is the only way to Heaven of which we know; therefore, all people should accept him now.” Any teaching that waters down that essential truth is harmful.

Some atheist, Jews and Muslims unwittingly follow, and suffer in, Christ more than do many Christians!

 

[blue_lily]

Who are all these people he is winning over to the light? Atheists?

Look, we can explain away what the Pope said, we can give it context. But it is what it is. He said it. One only has to follow one’s conscience. You can talk about “well formed” or some sort of qualifier, but that is not what he said.

This will be used by many to justify many things. From ABC to homosexual marriage.

Pope Francis did not actually say those words. He did not change Catholic doctrine. If you knew Catholic doctrine even a little, you would know that you cannot go to Heaven by following your conscience alone; you must believe in Jesus as Lord, period. That is the only way to be saved, there is no other way. What Francis is saying here is that we would meet the atheists where they are listening to their conscience, and then they can begin the journey to Jesus.

It seems to me that Pope Francis is not going to explain basic Catholic doctrine every time he opens his mouth.

Of course the media and others will use Francis’ words and twist them into whatever they want – the Other Side has been doing that for thousands of years.

 

[JillianRose]

Oh man. The protestants are going to have a field day! I’ve spent the better part of my Catholic life saying that the Church does not teach that you earn your way to heaven but rather that through Works AND Faith we are saved. Turns out. It is only works…

LOL!! Tell me about it brother! I have a friends who is Calvinist, and pick everything apart. I will be ignoring her phone calls this week!! LOL

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

. What Francis is saying here is that we would meet the atheists where they are listening to their conscience, and then they can begin the journey to Jesus…

Where did the Pope say that? If you read what he said it does not say that at all.

Like I said. The Pope said what he said and now people are trying to nuance it, explain it to fit their own version of what they believe.

If you are correct. If the Pope did not mean what he said then you must have a low opinion of him. The Pope’s words were measured, chosen, and picked and written for a reason. This was not an off the cuff remark. This was a measured, proofread, text. He was speaking directly to an issue.
If he had wanted to add qualifiers he could have.

It would seem to me that this was aimed at exactly what you say the Pope was not aiming it at. IT was aimed at the media, and the populace in general who are not learned in basic Catholic theology. So while most of the time I agree that the media twists what the Pope said, this time I cannot. The Pope was speaking directly to unbelievers and telling them how to achieve heaven.

The Pope said what he said. What I think is odd is the amount of people who automatically become the Pope’s closest friend and advisor when they try to explain it away. I had no idea that so many on these forums knew the Pope so well as to speak for what he meant.

 

[JillianRose]

Then you were teaching them wrong. You don’t get to heaven by works or faith, but by grace through faith working in love.

Absolutely LOVE the way you wrote this!! It took me a couple of times but It makes perfect sense!

 

[triumphguy]

But how can a properly formed conscience exist outside of the Church?

Only by grace.

And grace is a gift often rejected.

 

[crazzeto]

Absolutely LOVE the way you wrote this!! It took me a couple of times but It makes perfect sense!

Fr. Barron has an excellent audio clip on this which I wanted to post but I don’t have head phones to verify that the clip I’m selecting is the one I wanted. I would suggest doing a google for it, but yes exactly the point made. Salvation by Grace through faith perfected by love. All three components.

I sense in this discussion there is great fear over the misinterpretation of the Holy Fathers words being blended with the idea of whether or not they are orthodox. Do not let your fear of how it will be interpreted by those of malintent influence your opinion on whether it is orthodox. After all, St. Paul had the same problem (as recorded in scripture).

 

[einna]

Absolutely LOVE the way you wrote this!! It took me a couple of times but It makes perfect sense!

That is exactly right. I love this Pope. I never understood why people take so much time worrying who might and might not go to heaven. I have a hard enough time trying to be a better person everyday that I might someday earn my way there and I don’t think it helps anyone get there fast by deciding for themselves who does and doesn’t get in.

 

[Julie_de_Sales]

This plus his “Who am I to judge gay people?” will give Protestant pastors something to talk about for the next 500 years. I really wish the Pope’s advisors would help him to understand that every word he utters matters greatly.

Whenever I read in the news The Pope said… or The Pope decided that… I get a chill…I don’t know about you, but I’m still not comfortable with him.

 

[blue_lily]

Where did the Pope say that? If you read what he said it does not say that at all.

Like I said. The Pope said what he said and now people are trying to nuance it, explain it to fit their own version of what they believe.

If you are correct. If the Pope did not mean what he said then you must have a low opinion of him. The Pope’s words were measured, chosen, and picked and written for a reason. This was not an off the cuff remark. This was a measured, proofread, text. He was speaking directly to an issue.
If he had wanted to add qualifiers he could have.

It would seem to me that this was aimed at exactly what you say the Pope was not aiming it at. IT was aimed at the media, and the populace in general who are not learned in basic Catholic theology. So while most of the time I agree that the media twists what the Pope said, this time I cannot. The Pope was speaking directly to unbelievers and telling them how to achieve heaven.

I will try once again to help you out, though you fight me with your own ideas and not what Pope Francis actually said. Let’s get down to the actual words.

The Pope said, and I quote: “the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart; the question for one who doesn’t believe in God lies in obeying one’s conscience.” The important part here is “turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart.” This means the atheist needs to turn to God, which means believe in God and Jesus. This will begin his journey toward God and Heaven.

Pope Francis goes on: “Sin, also for those who don’t have faith, exists when one goes against one’s conscience. To listen to and to obey it means, in fact, to decide in face of what is perceived as good or evil. And on this decision pivots the goodness or malice of our action.” He is saying here the Sin for the atheist is when he goes against his own conscience. And he acts in accordance with the idea of goodness or evilness in his own conscience.

However, Francis does not say anything here about getting into Heaven because an atheist follows his conscience. Why don’t you read the translated letter and tell me if there is something I missed in there that says an atheist can get into Heaven without believing in God? Here’s the translation:

zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-letter-to-the-founder-of-la-repubblica-italian-newspaper

 

[Julie_de_Sales]

That is exactly right. I love this Pope. I never understood why people take so much time worrying who might and might not go to heaven. I have a hard enough time trying to be a better person everyday that I might someday earn my way there and I don’t think it helps anyone get there fast by deciding for themselves who does and doesn’t get in.

It’s certainly God’s decision about who goes to heaven and who doesn’t, but the question is very important and it’s natural to be concerned about it. Not only for our own sake, but also for those of our families and friends.

 

[Origen52]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheQuestioner
Then you were teaching them wrong. You don’t get to heaven by works or faith, but by grace through faith working in love.

If that is true then great! But where is that in the CCC or the Bible?
(I hate to sound like a Protestant here)

But where are you getting that from?

"The Bible tells us we must have faith in order to be saved (Hebrews 11:6). Yet is faith nothing more than believing and trusting? Searching the Scriptures, we see faith also involves assent to God’s truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed by the reformers, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it’s certainly an attention grabber.

Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was “born again” it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by “remaining in Him” (John 15:1-11).

Paul tells us our faith is living and can go through many stages. It never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience no matter how genuine or sincere. Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a “waiver” that exempts them from these verses.

Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5."
Sal Ciresi
ewtn.com/library/answers/faworks.htm

He said it better than I ever could.

 

[captainmike]

I will try once again to help you out, though you fight me with your own ideas and not what Pope Francis actually said. Let’s get down to the actual words.

The Pope said, and I quote: “the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart; the question for one who doesn’t believe in God lies in obeying one’s conscience.” The important part here is “turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart.” This means the atheist needs to turn to God, which means believe in God and Jesus. This will begin his journey toward God and Heaven.

Pope Francis goes on: “Sin, also for those who don’t have faith, exists when one goes against one’s conscience. To listen to and to obey it means, in fact, to decide in face of what is perceived as good or evil. And on this decision pivots the goodness or malice of our action.” He is saying here the Sin for the atheist is when he goes against his own conscience. And he acts in accordance with the idea of goodness or evilness in his own conscience.

However, Francis does not say anything here about getting into Heaven because an atheist follows his conscience. Why don’t you read the translated letter and tell me if there is something I missed in there that says an atheist can get into Heaven without believing in God? Here’s the translation:

zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-letter-to-the-founder-of-la-repubblica-italian-newspaper

But why say something like this? What good does it do? Why not try to share the gospel of Jesus Christ instead?

 

[captainmike]

I will try once again to help you out, though you fight me with your own ideas and not what Pope Francis actually said. Let’s get down to the actual words.

The Pope said, and I quote: “the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart; the question for one who doesn’t believe in God lies in obeying one’s conscience.” The important part here is “turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart.” This means the atheist needs to turn to God, which means believe in God and Jesus. This will begin his journey toward God and Heaven.

Pope Francis goes on: “Sin, also for those who don’t have faith, exists when one goes against one’s conscience. To listen to and to obey it means, in fact, to decide in face of what is perceived as good or evil. And on this decision pivots the goodness or malice of our action.” He is saying here the Sin for the atheist is when he goes against his own conscience. And he acts in accordance with the idea of goodness or evilness in his own conscience.

However, Francis does not say anything here about getting into Heaven because an atheist follows his conscience. Why don’t you read the translated letter and tell me if there is something I missed in there that says an atheist can get into Heaven without believing in God? Here’s the translation:

zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-letter-to-the-founder-of-la-repubblica-italian-newspaper

But why say something like this? What good does it do? Why not try to share the gospel of Jesus Christ instead?

 

[einna]

Whenever I read in the news The Pope said… or The Pope decided that… I get a chill…I don’t know about you, but I’m still not comfortable with him.

I understand your feeling that way. I have only known Jesuit priests all my life, so I never felt very comfortable with the Popes in the past. The Jesuits are very different, but in my opinion they are absolutely wonderful, not better, just different. From reading many of the post on this site it often sounds like I am reading Protestant views only to find out the writer is Catholic, but not the kind of Catholic I am used to being around. Most Jesuits focus on love, forgiveness, and how to grow stronger bond with God and others. Our faith is not about judging others and deciding who will be saved. Jesuits are about finding God in everyone, everything, and every experience we have each day, even in non-believers.

You might want to read the “Spiritual Exercises” of Saint Ignatius, the founder of the Society of Jesus or the Jesuits. I can’t say it will help you feel more comfortable, but it may give a better insight to Pope Francis and the way he practices his faith.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

This brings to mind for me, two examples. One from history and one more personal. The CCC does define theism as grave sin, however God thankfully is above His own Sacraments. When Joseph Stalin died, it was related by a relative that he sat up in bed, pointed at the ceiling and then to his family “as if to call down a curse” and then expired violently collapsing on his bed. It seems he saw something in his final moments. Perhaps some revelation as his soul was leaving his body that he had one final chance to repent. It sounds like he rejected it.

On the opposite end my Dad had a friend a few years ago who was in the hospital dying of complications from surgery. Her lungs were full of fluid, and she had been VERY heavily sedated to keep her from being in pain. The woman was absolutely full of mind numbing medication. As she lay dying her body violently spasmed as she slept trying to get the fluid out of her lungs. In her final years she had converted fom a Jehovah’s Witness to a devout Catholic. She worked with the unfortunate, attended daily Mass, and was strongly devoted to Mary. Suddenly, related my dad, while he held her hand in the hospital bed, she stopped thrashing, opened her eyes (which should’ve been impossible with all the drugs in her), sat up, looked at someone at the end of the bed no one else could see. She smiled radiantly, nodded and laid back down and passed peacefully.

Now, in St. Faustina’s Divine Mercy In My Soul, Jesus says he calls the soul of a dying person no less than three times. Lovingly asking them to accept His Mercy with their last breath. I do not think it goes against doctrine to believe that at death, most of us are shown that God is there, and we can accept or reject it. Atheists then, who have a well formed conscience, and who do what they think best, display as was pointed out earlier by another poster, “The Law written on their hearts.”. These people at their death, who unknowingly walked their life journey in Charity, can therefore on their deathbeds recognize Supreme Goodness and accept it when He calls them Home.

 

[einna]

But why say something like this? What good does it do? Why not try to share the gospel of Jesus Christ instead?

There very many, many priest from around the world who knew and respected Pope Francis enough to believe he was the right person to lead the Church. He like all the other Popes before him are not going to please everyone all the time. Why don’t we focus on the good.