Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

[mackguy]

From the Lumen Fedei cited here earlier which bears the name Francis as the author (though he says Benedict did much of the work and writing) is contrary to what you have said here sort of.

" Such people, even when they obey the commandments and do good works, are centred on themselves; they fail to realize that goodness comes from God. Those who live this way, who want to be the source of their own righteousness, find that the latter is soon depleted and that they are unable even to keep the law. They become closed in on themselves and isolated from the Lord and from others; their lives become futile and their works barren, like a tree far from water. Saint Augustine tells us in his usual concise and striking way: “Ab eo qui fecit te, noli deficere nec ad te”, “Do not turn away from the one who made you, even to turn towards yourself”.[15] Once I think that by turning away from God I will find myself, my life begins to fall apart (cf. Lk 15:11-24). The beginning of salvation is openness to something prior to ourselves, to a primordial gift that affirms life and sustains it in being. Only by being open to and acknowledging this gift can we be transformed, experience salvation and bear good fruit. Salvation by faith means recognizing the primacy of God’s gift. As Saint Paul puts it: “By grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” (Eph 2:8)."

You cannot be saved without acknowledging Christ

I want to understand what people are thinking. We are all children of God, so do you some of you think that good “Christ like” people that do a tremendous amount of good in the world and love and accept others, but who are not Catholic will not go to heaven? If you read other Jesuit priest thoughts on what the Pope said, they do not think the press twisted anything but clearly state what Pope Francis said.

I have worked at a Jesuit high school for twenty years and we have kids from all religions going to our school, Jews, Muslim, Protestants, Atheist, etc. They must attend the pray services, Masses, and theology classes, but they are never told the will not go to heaven because of their beliefs. They are taught about Catholic teaching, but no one tries to convert them. The focus is creating Men for Others, going out and doing good work throughout their lives. Every year we have twice as many applicants as we have spots for and the vast majority of student have a very strong loyalty to the school long after they graduate and that is student of all religions. Jesus died for all of us and he wanted us to come together even if not in Church.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You cannot be saved without acknowledging Christ

Book of Romans - Chapter 2
“glory and honour and peace will come to everyone who does good – Jews first, but Greeks as well.”

 

[einna]

From the Lumen Fedei cited here earlier which bears the name Francis as the author (though he says Benedict did much of the work and writing) is contrary to what you have said here sort of.

" Such people, even when they obey the commandments and do good works, are centred on themselves; they fail to realize that goodness comes from God. Those who live this way, who want to be the source of their own righteousness, find that the latter is soon depleted and that they are unable even to keep the law. They become closed in on themselves and isolated from the Lord and from others; their lives become futile and their works barren, like a tree far from water. Saint Augustine tells us in his usual concise and striking way: “Ab eo qui fecit te, noli deficere nec ad te”, “Do not turn away from the one who made you, even to turn towards yourself”.[15] Once I think that by turning away from God I will find myself, my life begins to fall apart (cf. Lk 15:11-24). The beginning of salvation is openness to something prior to ourselves, to a primordial gift that affirms life and sustains it in being. Only by being open to and acknowledging this gift can we be transformed, experience salvation and bear good fruit. Salvation by faith means recognizing the primacy of God’s gift. As Saint Paul puts it: “By grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” (Eph 2:8)."

You cannot be saved without acknowledging Christ

I am sorry I should have said I would like to know what Catholics believe as I am Catholic. I am fully aware about what the Southern Baptists believe as my husband was raised Southern Baptist and left that church as soon as he left home for attitudes such as yours. There are many good people out in the world doing good works because it is simply the right thing to do and not for their own righteousness. I find your attitude to be very non- Christ like.

 

[pnewton]

You cannot be saved without acknowledging Christ

That is not in the letter you quoted. This is as much of a wrong re-statement of Church teaching as is the headline in the first post.

If people would stop trying to re-phrase what the Church teaches, it would be a lot less confusing.

 

[McCall1981]

I am sorry I should have said I would like to know what Catholics believe as I am Catholic. I am fully aware about what the Southern Baptists believe as my husband was raised Southern Baptist and left that church as soon as he left home for attitudes such as yours. There are many good people out in the world doing good works because it is simply the right thing to do and not for their own righteousness. I find your attitude to be very non- Christ like.

Mackguy, the Southern Baptist here, knows Catholicism better than many Catholics posting in this thread. Of course acknowledging Christ is necessary for salvation, that is one of the most basic things the Church teaches, it’s not an “attitude” that some people have. The only exception is the “invincible ignorance” issue, which is clearly laid out in the docs of Vat II. Read those docs, read the Gospels, read the Catechism, read Veritatis Splendor, read Luman Fidei; they all say we need faith in Christ to be saved.

 

[pnewton]

I am so liking this pope.
He really understands what forgiveness and love is all about.

.

Unfortunately, the media misquotes him more often than not. Well, not so much misquote, as twist his words around, using faulty logic. When the popes states what sin is for an atheist, he is not saying all dogs go to heaven. This is what you get with theologically ignorant reporters that only hear what they want.

The Church not only denies that all atheist go to heaven just by following their conscience, they also give no guarantee for Catholics, Baptists or anyone else. One cannot knowingly reject Christ and go to Heaven. Period. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, in this world or the next.

 

[McCall1981]

Unfortunately, the media misquotes him more often than not. Well, not so much misquote, as twist his words around, using faulty logic. When the popes states what sin is for an atheist, he is not saying all dogs go to heaven. This is what you get with theologically ignorant reporters that only hear what they want.

The Church not only denies that all atheist go to heaven just by following their conscience, they also give no guarantee for Catholics, Baptists or anyone else. One cannot knowingly reject Christ and go to Heaven. Period. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, in this world or the next.

This, thank you.

 

[sw85]

The Church not only denies that all atheist go to heaven just by following their conscience, they also give no guarantee for Catholics, Baptists or anyone else. One cannot knowingly reject Christ and go to Heaven. Period. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, in this world or the next.

Bingo, and that there is the major problem. When most people talk about “invincible ignorance” they fixate on the “invincible” part. Modern Western atheists may be invincibly something but isn’t “ignorant,” because most aren’t in the condition of 3rd century pagans, totally ignorant of Christ. They’re in the situation of 7th century Muslims – they decisively and deliberate reject Christ.

If your position is that Christian claims re: the Virgin Birth, Incarnation, Resurrection, Ascension, etc., are that they are the gobbledygook of primitive homophobes etc. then you aren’t ignorant. If you aren’t ignorant then you aren’t invincibly ignorant.

 

[einna]

Unfortunately, the media misquotes him more often than not. Well, not so much misquote, as twist his words around, using faulty logic. When the popes states what sin is for an atheist, he is not saying all dogs go to heaven. This is what you get with theologically ignorant reporters that only hear what they want.

The Church not only denies that all atheist go to heaven just by following their conscience, they also give no guarantee for Catholics, Baptists or anyone else. One cannot knowingly reject Christ and go to Heaven. Period. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, in this world or the next.

To me it sounds like you think you are God himself. God can choose to forgive anyone for anything at anytime through His divine mercy. Who are you to say who that might be? Those don’t sound like Christ’s words at all!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Does it strike anyone else that the Vatican is having to do a lot of explaining of this pope’s words and actions? I’m not saying that he was technically wrong on any of the following:

• Washing the feet of a Muslim woman on Holy Thursday
• His remarks concerning homosexuality
• His comments concerning Atheists following their consciences

However, it seems to me that he has been misunderstood on several occasions in a very short period of time.

Is this a case of a newbie pope not realizing that he’s not in Kansas anymore and that every word he utters will be scrutinized and flashed around the world in seconds?

 

[McCall1981]

To me it sounds like you think you are God himself. God can choose to forgive anyone for anything at anytime through His divine mercy. Who are you to say who that might be? Those don’t sound like Christ’s words at all!

Pnewton is just repeating what the Church teaches, not advacning an opinion of his/her own.

Does it strike anyone else that the Vatican is having to do a lot of explaining of this pope’s words and actions? I’m not saying that he was technically wrong on any of the following:

• Washing the feet of a Muslim woman on Holy Thursday
• His remarks concerning homosexuality
• His comments concerning Atheists following their consciences

However, it seems to me that he has been misunderstood on several occasions in a very short period of time.

Is this a case of a newbie pope not realizing that he’s not in Kansas anymore and that every word he utters will be scrutinized and flashed around the world in seconds?

This is exactly what I’ve been trying to figure out

 

[franklinstower]

Where did the Pope say that? If you read what he said it does not say that at all.

Like I said. The Pope said what he said and now people are trying to nuance it, explain it to fit their own version of what they believe.

If you are correct. If the Pope did not mean what he said then you must have a low opinion of him. The Pope’s words were measured, chosen, and picked and written for a reason. This was not an off the cuff remark. This was a measured, proofread, text. He was speaking directly to an issue.
If he had wanted to add qualifiers he could have.

It would seem to me that this was aimed at exactly what you say the Pope was not aiming it at. IT was aimed at the media, and the populace in general who are not learned in basic Catholic theology. So while most of the time I agree that the media twists what the Pope said, this time I cannot. The Pope was speaking directly to unbelievers and telling them how to achieve heaven.

The Pope said what he said. What I think is odd is the amount of people who automatically become the Pope’s closest friend and advisor when they try to explain it away. I had no idea that so many on these forums knew the Pope so well as to speak for what he meant.

I think your post is about right. Many people have their security built on being saved while others are not-- this false security and exclusivism becomes an insulation from humanity.
When the pope comes out and is less rigid and more open to humanity and with a bigger Jesus and bigger salvific plan than they have plugged into, it becomes necessary to edit what he said to avoid feeling threatened. This very simply is the dark side of religion-- that while intending to help us grow in love of God and love of neighbor it secretly walls us off from whole sections of humanity, poisoning our hearts and minds.

In the 1994 new edition of the catechism on page 386 fifth paragraph the position of the church regarding non Christians is stated with perfect clarity. There can be no mistaking the fact that the church teaches that Christ is involved in all other religions and that one can find salvation in them without acknowledging Christ. This is so far from what many practicing Catholics believe and teach.

 

[mackguy]

That is not in the letter you quoted. This is as much of a wrong re-statement of Church teaching as is the headline in the first post.

If people would stop trying to re-phrase what the Church teaches, it would be a lot less confusing.

I am sorry I should have said I would like to know what Catholics believe as I am Catholic. I am fully aware about what the Southern Baptists believe as my husband was raised Southern Baptist and left that church as soon as he left home for attitudes such as yours. There are many good people out in the world doing good works because it is simply the right thing to do and not for their own righteousness. I find your attitude to be very non- Christ like.

The Lumen Fedei which I referenced is the work of Pope(s) Benedict and Francis and has nothing to do with Southern Baptistism.

Re: Pnewton, I perhaps misphrased what I said, I think you got it better in your statement that you cannot knowingly reject Christ. However, in my defense, I was just referencing this in a letter to a relative of mine regarding this headline.

“Romans 1:20-21
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not [a]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

Which in my reading indicates you cannot be TRULY ignorant of Christ, even if you don’t quite know all the details (having never heard the Gospel).

 

[Origen52]

I think your post is about right. Many people have their security built on being saved while others are not-- this false security and exclusivism becomes an insulation from humanity.
When the pope comes out and is less rigid and more open to humanity and with a bigger Jesus and bigger salvific plan than they have plugged into, it becomes necessary to edit what he said to avoid feeling threatened. This very simply is the dark side of religion-- that while intending to help us grow in love of God and love of neighbor it secretly walls us off from whole sections of humanity, poisoning our hearts and minds.

In the 1994 new edition of the catechism on page 386 fifth paragraph the position of the church regarding non Christians is stated with perfect clarity. There can be no mistaking the fact that the church teaches that Christ is involved in all other religions and that one can find salvation in them without acknowledging Christ. This is so far from what many practicing Catholics believe and teach.

Well said. In the words of father groeschel, whom I still love, “I worry about the salvation of the baptized, no the unbaptised.”

 

[Jon_S_1]

I think your post is about right. Many people have their security built on being saved while others are not-- this false security and exclusivism becomes an insulation from humanity.
When the pope comes out and is less rigid and more open to humanity and with a bigger Jesus and bigger salvific plan than they have plugged into, it becomes necessary to edit what he said to avoid feeling threatened. This very simply is the dark side of religion-- that while intending to help us grow in love of God and love of neighbor it secretly walls us off from whole sections of humanity, poisoning our hearts and minds.

In the 1994 new edition of the catechism on page 386 fifth paragraph the position of the church regarding non Christians is stated with perfect clarity. There can be no mistaking the fact that the church teaches that Christ is involved in all other religions and that one can find salvation in them without acknowledging Christ. This is so far from what many practicing Catholics believe and teach.

Could you please state what paragraph number. My page 386 is about the Eucharist.

 

[franklinstower]

This is a little off topic because it deals with other religions instead of Atheism but then again Buddhism is certainly an atheistic religion and is included in the catechism as one of the religions that can bring salvation to people.

Many people have their security built on being saved while others are not-- this false security and exclusivism becomes an insulation from humanity.
When the pope comes out and is less rigid and more open to humanity and with a bigger Jesus and bigger salvific plan than they have plugged into, it becomes necessary to edit what he said to avoid feeling threatened. This very simply is the dark side of religion-- that while intending to help us grow in love of God and love of neighbor it secretly walls us off from whole sections of humanity, poisoning our hearts and minds.

In the 1994 new edition of the catechism on page 386 fifth paragraph the position of the church regarding non Christians is stated with perfect clarity. There can be no mistaking the fact that the church teaches that Christ is involved in all other religions and that one can find salvation in them without acknowledging Christ. This includes Buddhism which in most forms is absolutely atheistic- they do not believe in God. This is so far from what many practicing Catholics believe and teach.

 

[einna]

The Lumen Fedei which I referenced is the work of Pope(s) Benedict and Francis and has nothing to do with Southern Baptistism.

Re: Pnewton, I perhaps misphrased what I said, I think you got it better in your statement that you cannot knowingly reject Christ. However, in my defense, I was just referencing this in a letter to a relative of mine regarding this headline.

“Romans 1:20-21
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not [a]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

Which in my reading indicates you cannot be TRULY ignorant of Christ, even if you don’t quite know all the details (having never heard the Gospel).

Believe it or not there were many Catholic that didn’t like what Pope Benedict had to say or how he said it.

 

[Origen52]

Maybe this will calm people who have been truly upset by Pope Francis’ words.
It’s a long quote, but I ask each of you to please read it.

"Yet if we are honest, we will have to admit that this is not our problem at all. The question we have to face is not that of whether other people can be saved and how. We are convinced that God is able to do this with or without our theories, with or without our perspicacity, and that we do not need to help him do it with our cogitations. The question that really troubles us is not in the least concerned with whether and how God manages to save others.

The question that torments us is, much rather, that of why it is still actually necessary for us to carry out the whole ministry of the Christian faith—why, if there are so many other ways to heaven and to salvation, should it still be demanded of us that we bear, day by day, the whole burden of ecclesiastical dogma and ecclesiastical ethics? And with that, we are once more confronted, though from a different approach, with the same question we raised yesterday in conversation with God and with which we parted: What actually is the Christian reality, the real substance of Christianity that goes beyond mere moralism? What is that special thing in Christianity that not only justifies but compels us to be and live as Christians?

It became clear enough to us, yesterday, that there is no answer to this that will resolve every contradiction into incontrovertible, unambivalent truth with scientific clarity. Assent to the hiddenness of God is an essential part of the movement of the spirit that we call “faith.” And one more preliminary consideration is requisite. If we are raising the question of the basis and meaning of our life as Christians, as it emerged for us just now, then this can easily conceal a sidelong glance at what we suppose to be the easier and more comfortable life of other people, who will “also” get to heaven. We are too much like the workers taken on in the first hour whom the Lord talks about in his parable of the workers in the vineyard (Mt 20:1-6). When they realized that the day’s wage of one denarius could be much more easily earned, they could no longer see why they had sweated all day. Yet how could they really have been certain that it was so much more comfortable to be out of work than to work? And why was it that they were happy with their wages only on the condition that other people were worse off than they were? But the parable is not there on account of those workers at that time; it is there for our sake. For in our raising questions about the “why” of Christianity, we are doing just what those workers did. We are assuming that spiritual “unemployment”—a life without faith or prayer—is more pleasant than spiritual service. Yet how do we know that?"
Joseph Ratzinger further Pope Benedict XVI

beliefnet.com/Faiths/Catholic/2007/01/Are-Non-Christians-Saved.aspx

Nothing pope Francis says has not already been said by Benedict and many other popes, Benedict just says it best (just my very biased opinion).

 

[Jon_S_1]

This is a little off topic because it deals with other religions instead of Atheism but then again Buddhism is certainly an atheistic religion and is included in the catechism as one of the religions that can bring salvation to people.

Many people have their security built on being saved while others are not-- this false security and exclusivism becomes an insulation from humanity.
When the pope comes out and is less rigid and more open to humanity and with a bigger Jesus and bigger salvific plan than they have plugged into, it becomes necessary to edit what he said to avoid feeling threatened. This very simply is the dark side of religion-- that while intending to help us grow in love of God and love of neighbor it secretly walls us off from whole sections of humanity, poisoning our hearts and minds.

In the 1994 new edition of the catechism on page 386 fifth paragraph the position of the church regarding non Christians is stated with perfect clarity. There can be no mistaking the fact that the church teaches that Christ is involved in all other religions and that one can find salvation in them without acknowledging Christ. This includes Buddhism which in most forms is absolutely atheistic- they do not believe in God. This is so far from what many practicing Catholics believe and teach.

This type of thinking makes me wonder

Why bother being Catholic?

Wouldn’t it be easier to do a little yoga and live a “moral” life by Buddhist standards?

Why do missions?

Shouldn’t we just close the churches and say, “follow your conscience”

 

[einna]

This type of thinking makes me wonder

Why bother being Catholic?

Wouldn’t it be easier to do a little yoga and live a “moral” life by Buddhist standards?

Why do missions?

Shouldn’t we just close the churches and say, “follow your conscience”

Maybe it means that God allows different ways to grow towards Him. I still have a very hard time believing that God put so many of His children here on earth only to reject them into heaven because they are not Christians. How many of you out there would become Buddhist if someone tried to convert you? Why would you believe that they should abandon the faith that they have been raised in and who are devoted to every bit as much has we are to ours. What about the Jews who have proven to follow God?