Pope Francis calls for big changes in Roman Catholic Church

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ClearWater said:
I see the wisdom in focusing on poverty. I think poverty is linked to all kinds of things. I consider it one of the underlying problems from theft, prostitution, contraception, divorce, to abortion, drugs, etc. I think the pope’s right on the money, there.

Please, do not get me wrong. I am not trying to condone abortion, or any other sin. However, I agree if we could make some headway on poverty, it might help decrease these other social problems, and sins.

I once took a class on poverty, and I learned how the divorce rate tended to go up when we had economic problems. I got to see in actual statistics, at a public college, that poverty was, indeed, related.

People might be more inclined to steal if they can’t find legitimate work and can’t figure out how else to get by.

Some women turn to prostitution when they can’t pay the bills and don’t know what other legitimate options they have. One might sell drugs, same reason. One might use contraception thinking, “How can I afford another mouth to feed?” Women might be more inclined to turn to abortion, same rationale.

Again, it’s not right, but I agree with the pope that it couldn’t hurt to focus on poverty, since it is the underlying issue in so many sins.
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Very well said. 👍 In fact, the exhortation includes numerous admonitions to protect the vulnerable, and there’s a particularly moving passage on the unborn that is worth quoting in its entirety:

Pope Francis said:
213. Among the vulnerable for whom the Church wishes to care with particular love and concern are unborn children, the most defenceless and innocent among us. Nowadays efforts are made to deny them their human dignity and to do with them whatever one pleases, taking their lives and passing laws preventing anyone from standing in the way of this. Frequently, as a way of ridiculing the Church’s effort to defend their lives, attempts are made to present her position as ideological, obscurantist and conservative. Yet this defence of unborn life is closely linked to the defence of each and every other human right. It involves the conviction that a human being is always sacred and inviolable, in any situation and at every stage of development. Human beings are ends in themselves and never a means of resolving other problems. Once this conviction disappears, so do solid and lasting foundations for the defence of human rights, which would always be subject to the passing whims of the powers that be. Reason alone is sufficient to recognize the inviolable value of each single human life, but if we also look at the issue from the standpoint of faith, “every violation of the personal dignity of the human being cries out in vengeance to God and is an offence against the creator of the individual”.
  1. Precisely because this involves the internal consistency of our message about the value of the human person, the Church cannot be expected to change her position on this question. I want to be completely honest in this regard. This is not something subject to alleged reforms or “modernizations”. It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life. On the other hand, it is also true that we have done little to adequately accompany women in very difficult situations, where abortion appears as a quick solution to their profound anguish, especially when the life developing within them is the result of rape or a situation of extreme poverty. Who can remain unmoved before such painful situations?
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*Pope Francis is a published author of a major work for the first time under that name…The 224-page document rails against unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny,” … He implored the rich to share their wealth, explaining that just as we are guided by the words “‘Thou shalt not kill’ … we also have to say ‘thou shalt not’ to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills.”*Story at Newser
 
And in other news from 2013 completely missed by the media:“It is alarming to see hotbeds of tension and conflict caused by growing instances of inequality between rich and poor, by the prevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindset which also finds expression in an unregulated financial capitalism.” (Pope Benedict XVI, World Day of Peace, January 2013)
 
And in yet other news that took place during a media coffee break:“The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person - every person - needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) - a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.” (Pope Benedict XVI, Encyclical Deus Caritas Est, 2005, 28)
 
So unbridled capitalism where companies prey on the dollar of consumers is bad. And so is a state that is controlling. Nothing new under the sun with Pope Francis…
 
I see mods are moving my posts as I try to post them. Let’s try this again.

*Pope Francis is a published author of a major work for the first time under that name…The 224-page document rails against unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny,” … He implored the rich to share their wealth, explaining that just as we are guided by the words “‘Thou shalt not kill’ … we also have to say ‘thou shalt not’ to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills.”*Story at Newser
 
And in other news from 2013 completely missed by the media:“It is alarming to see hotbeds of tension and conflict caused by growing instances of inequality between rich and poor, by the prevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindset which also finds expression in an unregulated financial capitalism.” (Pope Benedict XVI, World Day of Peace, January 2013)
 
And in yet other news that took place during a media coffee break:“The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person - every person - needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) - a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.” (Pope Benedict XVI, Encyclical Deus Caritas Est, 2005, 28)
 
I am quite sure that the Catholic Church, in spite of all its rules and regulations and obsessive formalities, is very much involved with bringing the gospel to the poor. Largest areas of growth in Catholicism are in the third world, and not in rich Europe or North America, for example.

It is really hard to separate ministering to those in need, and the culture wars however. It is quite easy to obsess less about SSM, since most of that group is richer than average, but in other ways, the trends in modern culture are pushing the CC out of areas in which it traditionally has reached out to the poor, such as adoption services for orphans, for example.
It might be good to see CC minister to the poor in inner cities, involved as they are in knock out games and the like, through extending Catholic education and schools into these areas, presenting the fatherless with a Father in heaven, so to speak.
In practical terms though,I am not sure what changes are being asked for.
 
Does anyone know how soon Evangelii Gaudium will be available in book or pamphlet form, and who will publish it? It looks like something I should read, but I so dislike reading longer texts online or via electronic device.
 
christofirst said:
Does anyone know how soon Evangelii Gaudium will be available in book or pamphlet form, and who will publish it? It looks like something I should read, but I so dislike reading longer texts online or via electronic device.
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Ignatius has it in hardcover.
 
From the perspective of a Catholic vacillating back and forth on whether to return to the Church or seek another path to God, I am waiting to see how all this weighs in.
 
ClearWater said:
I see the wisdom in focusing on poverty. I think poverty is linked to all kinds of things. I consider it one of the underlying problems from theft, prostitution, contraception, divorce, to abortion, drugs, etc. I think the pope’s right on the money, there.

Please, do not get me wrong. I am not trying to condone abortion, or any other sin. However, I agree if we could make some headway on poverty, it might help decrease these other social problems, and sins.

I once took a class on poverty, and I learned how the divorce rate tended to go up when we had economic problems. I got to see in actual statistics, at a public college, that poverty was, indeed, related.

People might be more inclined to steal if they can’t find legitimate work and can’t figure out how else to get by.

Some women turn to prostitution when they can’t pay the bills and don’t know what other legitimate options they have. One might sell drugs, same reason. One might use contraception thinking, “How can I afford another mouth to feed?” Women might be more inclined to turn to abortion, same rationale.

Again, it’s not right, but I agree with the pope that it couldn’t hurt to focus on poverty, since it is the underlying issue in so many sins.
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Yes, I agree. I find that often all roads lead to poverty and to combat many social issues, addressing poverty has the effect of addressing that issue, be it divorce, prostitution, contraception, or abortion.

I think this is going to take a few readings to truly absorb everything Pope Francis is saying - but from my cursory reading, I really like what he is saying here. I love his strong focus on poverty, and how he is attempting to push us to be better, more generous and loving people. There’s a lot of inspiration to be had in this.
 
capitalism is not the enemy, its the over regulation of the government that has crippled true capitalism. When the common man with a good idea cannot even get a loan or backing for it, he instead tries to earn enough to start a business. But the common working man can barely work hard enough for the basic needs let alone save up for entrepreunership that will set him free. The reason more and more ‘rich’ people try to cheat on taxes is because everybody is paying excessive taxes. The money for charity (the real heros in the world) is being sucked up by the giant vacuum of government.

I once belonged to a church that was being harassed by an over zealous fire dept for every little nook and cranny. You comply or they shut your doors. You have to change out your stove, vent, emergency doors (that cost $1000’s) That is what is wrong. Our government and those that work for it are crazy.
 
True to form, Pope Francis is calling the faithful to conversion before evangelizing others.
 
Lost_Sheep said:
cnn.com/2013/11/26/world/pope-church-reforms/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_latest+%28RSS%3A+Most+Recent%29
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Well I’m reading it just now, and no doctrines, disciplines or Dogmas are changing, in fact he has reaffirmed several of them(i.e. Abortion is still wrong, Priesthood is and will always be male only). What will and must change is how we evangelise our fellow Catholics and the world. On those points the stuff seems good so far.
 
ProVobis said:
Precisely. And how much bigger than the changes in 60’s, for example.
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From what I understand, the intent of Vatican II was not too much different than what Pope Francis is calling for. Big changes have already been underway for the greater part of my life, and more than half of the life of every individual still alive and kicking and posting here.

It is putting the faith into practice that leads to all sorts of practical problems however, and leads us into a cultural war.

Take poverty for example, since that is the big thing for Pope FI. So far we are all agreeing. We would all remain in substantial agreement to when it comes to charity as one Christian answer to meeting the needs to the poor.
And while we as a Church can always give more, I don’t think that good people who will be able to substantially change the way the Church already operates when it comes to poverty and charity, just be giving even more and more.

But the next step is inevitably going to lead us, and very like you and me even, into a cultural war. I might say that capitalism is what generates wealth, and is the prime weapon in the war against poverty. The right to private property is the basic groundwork of social justice, according to my view. You might counter with disdain for such capitalist ‘greed’, and promote redistribution of wealth as the proper Catholic response that would fulfill the needs of the social injustice of poverty.

And the war is on.

So without stepping into that battleground for a moment, and while fully admiring the intentions of the Pope as being decent and good, in terms of a new policy, I can see all sorts of practical problems arising that all the good intentions in the world are not going to solve.

Just as an aside, this is not a theological problem for me personally. I see the Church as Israel, the Jacob who struggles with man and God, and prevails.
Our morality is not defined with our agreeing, but in the passion that we bring into the fight.🙂

I am not sure if the Pope might see it that way or not though. He seems to have tired of the cultural wars.
 
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