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rondirect
Guest
Phil, point taken, but that’s you. There are many out there that see it the other way around.
Pope Francis Calls for Reform in Liturgical Music
- Thread starter blackforest
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Yes, and this is precisely why I don’t really like the topic of church music.
It always ends up with somebody claiming that a particular style of music is better or more apropos. Usually it ends up with somebody pushing chant or classical and deriding the St. Louis Jesuits or “contemporary Christian”.
As someone who likes some of every genre, and was further trained as a young person to be respectful of ALL types of music and recognize that they all have some good points, I am not interested in bashing any style of church music.
Furthermore, although sometimes I get the classically trained organist at church A, I sometimes attend church B where the music consists of one teenager playing a piano that is too loud while two other teenagers lead the singing too softly and sometimes slightly off key. I may wince a little, but the Lord appreciates their sincerity. I try to do my bit by singing loud and on-key if I know the hymn. Then I forget about it. Some other people carry on like the fact that we don’t have scholas doing chant at every Mass are what’s bringing down the Church. It gets tiring.
blackforest
Well-known member
I think that’s the confusion. This thread is falling into a dichotomous-thinking trap. This isn’t a case of what we sing now vs. the works of Bach at every Mass.
The classically trained organist is a wonderful treat when visiting a Cathedral, but not even the Vatican is claiming that it’s a requirement. And nobody should be pinning that expectation on every lay musician at St. Joe Shmoe Parish in Bumbletown, Indiana.
But there are some simple but beautiful traditional hymns, once sung widely by our Catholic grand-parents. It’s possible to avoid banality and mediocrity, (Is the Pope music-bashing? Oh dear!), while still doing music accessible to amateur musicians.
The classically trained organist is a wonderful treat when visiting a Cathedral, but not even the Vatican is claiming that it’s a requirement. And nobody should be pinning that expectation on every lay musician at St. Joe Shmoe Parish in Bumbletown, Indiana.
But there are some simple but beautiful traditional hymns, once sung widely by our Catholic grand-parents. It’s possible to avoid banality and mediocrity, (Is the Pope music-bashing? Oh dear!), while still doing music accessible to amateur musicians.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I sing all the old Marian hymns myself. I like them. But I’ve heard others call them “banal”. Fortunately, enough people still like them that they aren’t going away and will at least be trotted out on the Marian holy days of obligation.
blackforest
Well-known member
I suspect that the Pope is deliberately evading specifics. There would be a lot of outrage if he came out and said, “For heaven’s sake, stop singing Eagle’s Wings, already!!”
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Augustinian
Guest
Of course you are right , a lot of people love Eagles Wings, and a lot of organists know how to play it.
But it would have helped clarify the issue and make his instructions on music crystal clear.
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rondirect
Guest
Agree! I, too, like all forms of music and those who know me, know that my music selections are blended from traditional to the contemporary (80s+) and the newer popular praise and worship songs of today. The people, as far as I know, like it too.
Absolutely. And, as I mentioned before, I really believe that we are in this unclear atmosphere today because of the “instructions” of Vatican II were not clear as they pertained to music.
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Peeps
Guest
Tis_Bearself, I was just trying to make a joke.
The entire post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I was pretty certain that phil19034 did not mean for the people in the pews to be singing the classical pieces, and sure enough, he chimed in with a LOL and confirmed what I already thought was his point!
I guess I’m not a very good joker.
Perhaps you would be able to do a search and let me know how many times I have “brought up this subject.” I didn’t think it was “constant,” but perhaps I need a reality check. Thanks.
The entire post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I was pretty certain that phil19034 did not mean for the people in the pews to be singing the classical pieces, and sure enough, he chimed in with a LOL and confirmed what I already thought was his point!
I guess I’m not a very good joker.
Perhaps you would be able to do a search and let me know how many times I have “brought up this subject.” I didn’t think it was “constant,” but perhaps I need a reality check. Thanks.
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Peeps
Guest
But musicians really need a printed program to know what they should play next. Making a general statement will not accomplish much because everyone interprets it differently.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I noticed the discussion of fellowship and drinking on two threads over the last two days. I didn’t respond to it on the first thread, but seeing it twice, I said something.
I would suggest if you’re joking - maybe use emoticons. It is hard to tell a person’s tone from a written post on the Internet.
I would suggest if you’re joking - maybe use emoticons. It is hard to tell a person’s tone from a written post on the Internet.
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Phemie
Guest
Must say I’ve only ever heard that sung once in my parish.
L
Londoner
Guest
As a convert from Anglicanism to Catholicism I have to say that I have found that the liturgy and especially the music are often done much better in Anglican churches.
Growing up in the Church of England our main Sunday Eucharist (likewise major feast days on weekdays) would feature a Mass setting for choir with or without organ (and sometimes with two organs!), e.g. settings by Byrd, Palestrina, Victoria, Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Stravinsky, Vaughan Williams, Vierne, Langlais. There would also be at least two anthems, one for the offertory and one for communion, either by composers in the Anglican tradition (such as Orlando Gibbons, Henry Purcell, or Benjamin Britten) or by Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox European composers. Typical communion anthems would be a setting of the Ave Verum (e.g. Elgar or Mozart) or Messiaen’s O Sacrum Convivium. There would also be a psalm setting, three hymns from the New English Hymnal, and Eucharistic acclamations, all sung in four-part harmony. In addition, there would be organ music before and after the service (often Bach or one of the great French organ composers such as Widor or Messiaen) and an improvised organ fanfare after the reading of the Gospel. Some major services would additionally open with Parry’s I Was Glad.
Every Sunday afternoon was Choral Evensong, with a choral setting of the Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis (either by a Tudor composer or a Victorian or 20th-century composer such as Charles Villiers Stanford or Herbert Howells), ditto a setting of the Preces and Responses, an anthem (typically one of the longer anthems in the repertoire such as Wesley’s Ascribe Unto the Lord or Mendelssohn’s Hear My Prayer), one or more psalms set to Anglican chant, and two hymns from the New English Hymnal. On major feast days there would be Solemn Eucharist and Te Deum, meaning that in addition there would be a processional hymn (e.g. for Easter Vaughan Williams’s Hail Thee, Festival Day) followed by a choral setting of the Te Deum. On Palm Sunday there would always be Allegri’s Miserere at Evensong.
Weekday Evensongs were basically the same except that the anthem would typically be shorter. Typical hymns for weekday evensong (which actually was in the evening rather than mid afternoon) would include Lord of all hopefulness, Glory to thee, my God, this night (Tallis’s Canon), The day thou gavest, Lord, is ended, and Glorious things of thee are spoken.
Of course there were also other choral services for major occasions in the Church year, e.g. Maundy Thursday evening the Church of England still performs the ancient ritual of stripping of the altar, accompanied by Psalm 22 sung in plainsong and Good Friday we would sing the St John Passion in a choral setting by Victoria as well as Fortunatus’ Pange lingua in plainsong and typically parts of Stainer’s Crucifixion (e.g. God so loved the world). Also, of course, the Advent liturgy beginning in almost total darkness with the hymn O come, o come, Emmanuel.
I am pleased that I was received into the Catholic Church, but I do sometimes miss the liturgy and the music.
Growing up in the Church of England our main Sunday Eucharist (likewise major feast days on weekdays) would feature a Mass setting for choir with or without organ (and sometimes with two organs!), e.g. settings by Byrd, Palestrina, Victoria, Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Stravinsky, Vaughan Williams, Vierne, Langlais. There would also be at least two anthems, one for the offertory and one for communion, either by composers in the Anglican tradition (such as Orlando Gibbons, Henry Purcell, or Benjamin Britten) or by Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox European composers. Typical communion anthems would be a setting of the Ave Verum (e.g. Elgar or Mozart) or Messiaen’s O Sacrum Convivium. There would also be a psalm setting, three hymns from the New English Hymnal, and Eucharistic acclamations, all sung in four-part harmony. In addition, there would be organ music before and after the service (often Bach or one of the great French organ composers such as Widor or Messiaen) and an improvised organ fanfare after the reading of the Gospel. Some major services would additionally open with Parry’s I Was Glad.
Every Sunday afternoon was Choral Evensong, with a choral setting of the Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis (either by a Tudor composer or a Victorian or 20th-century composer such as Charles Villiers Stanford or Herbert Howells), ditto a setting of the Preces and Responses, an anthem (typically one of the longer anthems in the repertoire such as Wesley’s Ascribe Unto the Lord or Mendelssohn’s Hear My Prayer), one or more psalms set to Anglican chant, and two hymns from the New English Hymnal. On major feast days there would be Solemn Eucharist and Te Deum, meaning that in addition there would be a processional hymn (e.g. for Easter Vaughan Williams’s Hail Thee, Festival Day) followed by a choral setting of the Te Deum. On Palm Sunday there would always be Allegri’s Miserere at Evensong.
Weekday Evensongs were basically the same except that the anthem would typically be shorter. Typical hymns for weekday evensong (which actually was in the evening rather than mid afternoon) would include Lord of all hopefulness, Glory to thee, my God, this night (Tallis’s Canon), The day thou gavest, Lord, is ended, and Glorious things of thee are spoken.
Of course there were also other choral services for major occasions in the Church year, e.g. Maundy Thursday evening the Church of England still performs the ancient ritual of stripping of the altar, accompanied by Psalm 22 sung in plainsong and Good Friday we would sing the St John Passion in a choral setting by Victoria as well as Fortunatus’ Pange lingua in plainsong and typically parts of Stainer’s Crucifixion (e.g. God so loved the world). Also, of course, the Advent liturgy beginning in almost total darkness with the hymn O come, o come, Emmanuel.
I am pleased that I was received into the Catholic Church, but I do sometimes miss the liturgy and the music.
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ConstantLearner
Guest
As a classically trained lyric soprano, one of the easiest ways to conquer your passagio is to practice descending exercises. When you go through your break, sing a little softer, at least at first. Worked for me quite quickly.
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blackforest
Well-known member
I’m pretty confident that the Pope wasn’t talking about the old Marian hymns.
I understand that tastes are subjective, which is why the Vatican - being no stranger to bureaucracy - should consider its own committee to approve which hymns are acceptable. Or they could outsource the task to committees of bishops in individual countries.
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Peeps
Guest
I think it would be difficult to try to regulate parish hymn choice from afar.
Bishops don’t necessarily know anything about music. It would be better if their committee consisted of actual musicians, who would have to be paid for their service to the Church. Examining and validating hymns is a lot of work.
Also, even knowledgeable musicians don’t necessarily know about regional music, so there would have to be musicians from all over the world.
After reading over this thread for several days now, I’m still convinced that Pope Francis did not intend to call for the creation of a “hymn -vice committee” charged with jettisoning the bad hymns. I still think he meant to call for a greater commitment to music in the OF Mass by EVERYONE, including the people in the pews. Even the most simple melody sounds inspiring when everyone joins in and sings with all their heart!
And I think he was admonishing music ministers/choir directors/organists, etc (the paid musicians in a parish) to step up their game and not just choose the same ol’ hymns year after year, but to study the hymnal and select a mix of old and new hymns, and attempt to educate the parishioners about these hymns (through the church bulletin, perhaps, or through a weekly online message from the parish office).
And of course, the musicians need to practice and make sure that they have prepared their instrumental pieces–during ordinary time, a prelude and a postlude are permissible (sorry, all of you who prefer absolute silence before and after Mass ), but I’ve seen very few parishes actually do preludes and/or postludes other than on Christmas and Easter. I have seen the “tourist” parishes in the U.S. do them. e.g., St. Pat’s in NYC.
I’ve played preludes, and the congregation CLAPS. This is just weird, but I think that it happensfor two reasons: 1) They like hearing music before and after Mass and they are letting me know that and 2) they don’t hear music before or after Mass very often, and they’re not sure what they are supposed to do in response."
So to summarize–I think the Pope just wants us all to do MORE with music in the OF Mass. Over and over we heard about Catholics who attend Protestant churches on the side because of the MUSIC (it can be either classical, e.g. in the Anglican and other mainline churches, or contemporary, such as the non-denominational megachurches.)
If I’m right, then I suggest that the Pope start small with a campaign to get parishioners to OPEN THE HYMNAL during the hymns. Even if they don’t sing, they should study the words and meditate on them and think about the Scriptural context or historical context of the hymn. In my parish, many people just stand there and don’t even pretend to pick up the hymnal.
Bishops don’t necessarily know anything about music. It would be better if their committee consisted of actual musicians, who would have to be paid for their service to the Church. Examining and validating hymns is a lot of work.
Also, even knowledgeable musicians don’t necessarily know about regional music, so there would have to be musicians from all over the world.
After reading over this thread for several days now, I’m still convinced that Pope Francis did not intend to call for the creation of a “hymn -vice committee” charged with jettisoning the bad hymns. I still think he meant to call for a greater commitment to music in the OF Mass by EVERYONE, including the people in the pews. Even the most simple melody sounds inspiring when everyone joins in and sings with all their heart!
And I think he was admonishing music ministers/choir directors/organists, etc (the paid musicians in a parish) to step up their game and not just choose the same ol’ hymns year after year, but to study the hymnal and select a mix of old and new hymns, and attempt to educate the parishioners about these hymns (through the church bulletin, perhaps, or through a weekly online message from the parish office).
And of course, the musicians need to practice and make sure that they have prepared their instrumental pieces–during ordinary time, a prelude and a postlude are permissible (sorry, all of you who prefer absolute silence before and after Mass ), but I’ve seen very few parishes actually do preludes and/or postludes other than on Christmas and Easter. I have seen the “tourist” parishes in the U.S. do them. e.g., St. Pat’s in NYC.
I’ve played preludes, and the congregation CLAPS. This is just weird, but I think that it happensfor two reasons: 1) They like hearing music before and after Mass and they are letting me know that and 2) they don’t hear music before or after Mass very often, and they’re not sure what they are supposed to do in response."
So to summarize–I think the Pope just wants us all to do MORE with music in the OF Mass. Over and over we heard about Catholics who attend Protestant churches on the side because of the MUSIC (it can be either classical, e.g. in the Anglican and other mainline churches, or contemporary, such as the non-denominational megachurches.)
If I’m right, then I suggest that the Pope start small with a campaign to get parishioners to OPEN THE HYMNAL during the hymns. Even if they don’t sing, they should study the words and meditate on them and think about the Scriptural context or historical context of the hymn. In my parish, many people just stand there and don’t even pretend to pick up the hymnal.
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jfz178
Guest
I am a liturgical musician who has made a study of religious chant, Catholic and otherwise. The truth is, almost no parishes today do actual religious chant. They do hymns based on Gregorian Chant, but it is not chant. Religious chant is intended to be a meditative spiritual practice that uses repetitive tones and words over long periods of time to cause the chanter to transcend everyday reality and be more open to God.
I have never been to a parish that does that, never knew a music director who understood it and never been a Mass that was long enough to make it work. I am sure there are still monasteries that do it, but what passes for chant in almost all parishes is no better than any other hymn.
I have never been to a parish that does that, never knew a music director who understood it and never been a Mass that was long enough to make it work. I am sure there are still monasteries that do it, but what passes for chant in almost all parishes is no better than any other hymn.
O
OraLabora
Guest
There definitely are, I am an oblate of a monastery that still uses chant, both Latin and French.
I agree with the meditative aspect. I use Gregorian chant daily for the Liturgy of the Hours, in Latin. The chanting pulls me from the realities of life for a couple of hours every day. I chant the psalm in Latin and read it meditatively in silence in French (my mother tongue) after chanting it.
I think part of the problem with people who don’t get it, is that it has much deeper meaning when actually participating in it, rather than just listening to it. Monks “get it” because they are in the middle of “it”. For them, it’s like the air they breathe. For me too. If I couldn’t chant the Office every day except when I travel, a big part of my life would be missing.
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dochawk
Guest
S
SeriousQuestion
Guest
The different notes of music are usually named after the first 7 letters of the alphabet. If you look at a piano with labels on the notes you might understand it better.
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dochawk
Guest
I understand that, and the math behind octaves.
But when people start talking about notes, it makes less sense to me than if they spoke etruscan (of which I don’t speak a word, although my uncle does ) . . .
But when people start talking about notes, it makes less sense to me than if they spoke etruscan (of which I don’t speak a word, although my uncle does ) . . .
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