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rondirect
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LOL! So when I say that hitting an H note, you’d might just say, “yeah, that’s not that high!”
Pope Francis Calls for Reform in Liturgical Music
- Thread starter blackforest
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SeriousQuestion
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H isn’t a note?
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Peeps
Guest
The issue of hymns being “too high” (or for some people, e.g., children, too low) would be solved if:
When we have the wonderful opportunity to attend church together (Catholic Mass), the four of us sing the hymns in four parts–Soprano (younger daughter), Alto (older daughter), Tenor (me, although some of the lower notes are kind of scratchy for me!), and Bass (my husband). We don’t have the parts written out in the hymnal, so we sing them by ear (another skill that comes with practice in singing in parts).
People turn around to see who is behind them.
We have several parish schools in our city, but only one full time music teacher in the wealthiest of these schools. This music teacher teaches the students (K-8 grade) how to read music.
In the other parish schools, the teachers don’t do this, but one of them has recorded 2 albums in which the traditional Catholic hymns are sung in “rock” style with a rock band. I’m sure it’s a great experience for the young students, but it’s sad to listen to these little ones “belting” out the music and singing totally under-pitch because no one has apparently taught them to use their “head voice.” Also, sadly, there are no parts (and good classic rock music is often sung in parts).
So probably before the hymns can be written in four parts, the parish schools in the U.S. need to make a commitment to hiring qualified music teachers who will devote the time and energy to teaching their students how to read music.
This strategy alone would reform liturgical music immensely! People in the U.S. don’t realize that singing is a skill that can be learned by almost anyone.
Oh, for those of you who want more Palestrina and other sacred polyphony–it won’t be happening until Catholics learn to read music, or at least learn to sing their parts by ear (some people do that really well) and then memorize those parts so that the pieces are being sung as written by the composer. That kind of music can’t be sung by untrained people.
- parishioners knew/learned how to read music
- Catholic hymnals published the 4 part hymns like all the Protestant hymnals.
When we have the wonderful opportunity to attend church together (Catholic Mass), the four of us sing the hymns in four parts–Soprano (younger daughter), Alto (older daughter), Tenor (me, although some of the lower notes are kind of scratchy for me!), and Bass (my husband). We don’t have the parts written out in the hymnal, so we sing them by ear (another skill that comes with practice in singing in parts).
People turn around to see who is behind them.
We have several parish schools in our city, but only one full time music teacher in the wealthiest of these schools. This music teacher teaches the students (K-8 grade) how to read music.
In the other parish schools, the teachers don’t do this, but one of them has recorded 2 albums in which the traditional Catholic hymns are sung in “rock” style with a rock band. I’m sure it’s a great experience for the young students, but it’s sad to listen to these little ones “belting” out the music and singing totally under-pitch because no one has apparently taught them to use their “head voice.” Also, sadly, there are no parts (and good classic rock music is often sung in parts).
So probably before the hymns can be written in four parts, the parish schools in the U.S. need to make a commitment to hiring qualified music teachers who will devote the time and energy to teaching their students how to read music.
This strategy alone would reform liturgical music immensely! People in the U.S. don’t realize that singing is a skill that can be learned by almost anyone.
Oh, for those of you who want more Palestrina and other sacred polyphony–it won’t be happening until Catholics learn to read music, or at least learn to sing their parts by ear (some people do that really well) and then memorize those parts so that the pieces are being sung as written by the composer. That kind of music can’t be sung by untrained people.
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michaelArc
Guest
The music and especially the lead vocals at my parish is so abysmal and is joined by parishioners who grumble their way with melancholy.
I’m open to anything else.
I’m open to anything else.
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Peeps
Guest
It kind of sounds like perhaps…you get what I’m saying–that it’s not the repertoire that needs reforming, but the congregations and their music leaders.
Think about it, everyone. It doesn’t matter if the Church jettisons all the “modern” hymns and Mass settings. If no one steps up to be in charge of the music at the parish, or if that person isn’t trained musically (e.g., the priest has to do it because no one else is available), and most importantly, if the congregation stands mute during times that they are supposed to be singing–it does not MATTER what the music is–it will sound puny and weak!
Singing softly is fine–we don’t all have to sing like we’re at a ball game!
But when only a few people sing softly, and everyone else just stands there, the music is puny and weak!
It’s not the music–it’s the singers and players.
And I personally think it’s because of a lack of music education in the public and private schools, including parish schools, for many decades now, as the U.S. is emphasizing STEM and sadly, in many elementary schools, just trying to teach the little ones how to read (and not succeeding in this in many schools in the U.S.).
So to reform liturgical music, we need to reform parish schools. Then in about fifteen years, we’ll see some good music in the Mass.
Think about it, everyone. It doesn’t matter if the Church jettisons all the “modern” hymns and Mass settings. If no one steps up to be in charge of the music at the parish, or if that person isn’t trained musically (e.g., the priest has to do it because no one else is available), and most importantly, if the congregation stands mute during times that they are supposed to be singing–it does not MATTER what the music is–it will sound puny and weak!
Singing softly is fine–we don’t all have to sing like we’re at a ball game!
But when only a few people sing softly, and everyone else just stands there, the music is puny and weak!
It’s not the music–it’s the singers and players.
And I personally think it’s because of a lack of music education in the public and private schools, including parish schools, for many decades now, as the U.S. is emphasizing STEM and sadly, in many elementary schools, just trying to teach the little ones how to read (and not succeeding in this in many schools in the U.S.).
So to reform liturgical music, we need to reform parish schools. Then in about fifteen years, we’ll see some good music in the Mass.
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michaelArc
Guest
I do agree with this to an extent. I’m personally not fond of lot of the hymns but yes the execution is poor. If it was done and lead properly at my church, it would make a difference. My priest has even asked for volunteers to the join the choir (which is comprised of maybe 3 people including the organist) with the condition they can sing. I can’t help to think that is jab against the lead vocalist.
On the rare occasion, we have another singer who joins our mass from another parish. It’s clear she is a trained opera singer, but it ends up being more of a distraction. Many are so mystified that there are always people turning their heads and looking back wondering where this voice is coming from.
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lprssmith
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Taste in music is subjective, at best, as are the terms “mediocrity, superficiality, and banality.” While I agree there is a place for traditional chant and sacred music in the liturgy, I’m not sure how it can enhance the prayerfulness of the large population of Catholics who do not speak or understand Latin. In my Catholic community, we use a combination of chant/sacred song (both Greek and Latin), classical music, traditional hymns and some contemporary music. Over the years, one of the priests, a well-known liturgist, has educated our congregation on the origins, ritual, and translation of the sacred music we use and incorporated it accordingly into our liturgies. I believe that has made the use of such music meaningful to our community, especially our younger members who have no knowledge of Latin.
All that being said, if the congregation doesn’t even know what is being sung, or even pronounce the words, how can it be prayerful? Lastly, where I live, it seems increasingly difficult to fill our pews, especially with young people. There is a part of me that feels as long as the music text is in keeping with Catholic teachings, is executed with good quality, and it can inspire people to come to Church and actively engage in prayer and worship it is not necessarily “mediocrity, superficiality and banal.”
All that being said, if the congregation doesn’t even know what is being sung, or even pronounce the words, how can it be prayerful? Lastly, where I live, it seems increasingly difficult to fill our pews, especially with young people. There is a part of me that feels as long as the music text is in keeping with Catholic teachings, is executed with good quality, and it can inspire people to come to Church and actively engage in prayer and worship it is not necessarily “mediocrity, superficiality and banal.”
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Cirdan_XII
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Amazing Grace is pentatonic. Pentatonic is a musical scale with a reduced number of notes. Most early music and pre Renaissance popular / folk music was pentatonic. Some more modern compiosiotions (Amazing Grace among them) and also some Gospel music etc was intentionally composed pentatonically to actually sound older than it is. Pentatonic is also found in many ethnic forms of music (African, native American and others) and many ethnic and also ancient instruments cannot paly the full range of notes required for more modern music and so are best used to perform pentatonic songs. So some contemporary composers still use the system.
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DaveBj
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jfz178
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For that matter, most folk and popular music is pentatonic. With a pentatonic, you can’t play or sing a “wrong” note over a 1-4-5 chord progression, which is also a basis for most folk and popular music. Pentatonics are “music simplified” which is not necessarily a bad thing.
As for the pitch discussion, most men are tenors, which is generally defined as having a range of the C note one octave below middle C (C3) to the C note one octave above middle C (C5). Most women are naturally mezzo sopranos, which is defined as the G note below middle C (G3) to the E note just above middle C (E4), without going into the “head voice” which the average singer may not be able to do. This is not to be confused with a lot of the printed sheet music, because most simplified sheet music is transposed to the treble clef, no matter where it is being sung.
It is also worth noting that a lot of inexperienced singers do not have a full two octave range, much less three. So it seems to me that if you want most of the people to sing, you stick with pentatonics and be in the key of G, because that allows the tenors and the mezzos to be comfortably in the range of G3 to C4. Depending on the range of a tune, other keys can accomplish the same thing. The range is the important thing and keys should be chosen accordingly.
As for the pitch discussion, most men are tenors, which is generally defined as having a range of the C note one octave below middle C (C3) to the C note one octave above middle C (C5). Most women are naturally mezzo sopranos, which is defined as the G note below middle C (G3) to the E note just above middle C (E4), without going into the “head voice” which the average singer may not be able to do. This is not to be confused with a lot of the printed sheet music, because most simplified sheet music is transposed to the treble clef, no matter where it is being sung.
It is also worth noting that a lot of inexperienced singers do not have a full two octave range, much less three. So it seems to me that if you want most of the people to sing, you stick with pentatonics and be in the key of G, because that allows the tenors and the mezzos to be comfortably in the range of G3 to C4. Depending on the range of a tune, other keys can accomplish the same thing. The range is the important thing and keys should be chosen accordingly.
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OraLabora
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There is a liturgical movement for “Simple English Propers”, that is simple chant settings in English for the Propers of the Mass. That is, the “proper” Propers, those translated from Latin in the Editio Typica and sung more melismatically in Latin in the Graduale Roman, and more simply, in the Graduale Simplex. I think that (and the same thing in French) would be a great start. They are fairly easy tones to master and accompany at the organ (if necessary), and are liturgically not only correct, but more significant than the hymns now sung, as they are usually attached to the nature of the particular Mass, feast or readings of the day.
That could be accompanied the Ordinary with Greek Kyrie, and Latin Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei. The Pater could be chanted in English or Latin on simple tones. For the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei, the simpler Mass settings can be used and are easily learned by heart; since they’re repeated every week, people will come to know their meanings within a week or two or three. I suggest Kyrie XVI (or XIA), Gloria XV, and Sanctus and Agnus XVIII.
No multi-voice parts, no weird tunes, all very simple and very easy to foster participation. For example for the entrance antiphon, the choir, schola or cantor can sing the antiphon followed by the psalm verse, and then the assembly repeats the antiphon.
It really isn’t that complicated, really, and I think a good part of the Propers have already been done in English:
Kyrie XVI
Gloria XV
Sanctus XVIII
Angus XVIII
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP3shbgF3LA
And perhaps Mass VIII (Missa Angelis) could be used on more festive occasions; as a gregorianist, I’m not too fond of that setting as it isn’t “true” Gregorian chant, but it is fine for parishes and has the benefit of being well-known.
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lprssmith
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We sing these during Lent (rather successfully) and try to keep the use of instruments to a bare minimum. I just don’t buy into the idea the chant and sacred music must’ve the only music we use, especially if it hinders rather than enhances worship and prayer. I believe education on tradition, ritual and text are important but I also believe it is possible to tastefully incorporate the best of chant, classical, and modern worship music into out liturgies. What one considers appropriate, beautiful, and prayerful music is subjective.
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DaveBj
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This is dubious; most men couldn’t come anywhere near a C5. It would probably be more accurate to say that most men are in the baritone or bass-baritone range, and a good two-octave range for a bass-baritone would be G (I don’t know the numbers; bottom line of the bass staff) to G three lines above the bass staff.
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Loud-living-dogma
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I believe you may be misinformed.
“Newton wrote the words of the hymn as a poem, which was how it was published in 1779. We have no idea whether he sang it to any particular tune, but we do know that the melody it is currently sung with (New Britain) was not associated with the song until the 1830’s. Before that time, it was undoubtedly sung to numerous other melodies…
Even if true, there is almost no chance that Newton ever heard that tune or envisioned his hymn being sung to that tune.”
Amazing Grace: Debunking a myth – Greg Howlett
greghowlett.com
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Ridgerunner
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Some hymns have stood the test of time and attention should be paid to that fact. There are reasons for it; primarily a) that they are easily sung b) the melody flows in a logical way…the last note almost calls for the next one c) the are attractive to the ear as music, not just as words.
I would say most “modern” church music fails. Oftentimes they’re not within the singing range of many. Oftentimes the melodies are tortured and illogical. Oftentimes the whole emphasis is on the “narrative”, not on the pleasing nature of the melody.
I agree with you that a lot of old songs immediately strike one as attractive today. But that’s not limited to American folk songs. Mozart is easy to sing and beautiful. It flows so well it virtually "sings itself’. Some folk songs are so good they have stood the test of time for centuries.
Some of the newer stuff is good, but most really isn’t. It’s like “1973 redux”
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Ridgerunner
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I would agree with that. I sing in a church choir. All the men but me are baritone. I’m anywhere from second tenor to basso profundo, so naturally the director has me sing very, very low notes. For most hymns, it’s all just in unison except for the Altos (easiest harmony is alto) in which case I am what’s called a “Octavet” or one who sings an octave below the otherwise lowest part.
From my perspective, the other men are, indeed, all baritones.
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Peeps
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I agree that most men are baritones. I’ve been part of a community choir for many years that involves around 100 people, and the distribution is generally in the range of 20 sopranos, 40 altos (mainly female, although we sometimes have a boy alto), 25 basses, and only 15 tenors, most of whom are high school boys who are doing the choir to get credit in their school.
Almost every year, the director manages to persuade several of the very low altos (female) to slide on over and sing tenor, and we have a couple of higher baritones who sing tenor on several of the pieces.
In the more “upscale” community choir in our city (the one that holds auditions!), there is one male alto–lovely voice, but definitely alto, not high tenor. I’ve met a few male altos who are very much in demand in the big cities, but they are very rare individuals!
Almost every year, the director manages to persuade several of the very low altos (female) to slide on over and sing tenor, and we have a couple of higher baritones who sing tenor on several of the pieces.
In the more “upscale” community choir in our city (the one that holds auditions!), there is one male alto–lovely voice, but definitely alto, not high tenor. I’ve met a few male altos who are very much in demand in the big cities, but they are very rare individuals!
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Peeps
Guest
Obviously people would have to read neumes.
I’ve tried to learn, but I just can’t get the hang of it. Maybe if I spent more time every week and maybe if I had a younger brain.
The kids seem to pick it up quickly (I volunteer to accompany at a traditional Latin Mass school).
Are you saying that the congregation would sing these chants (and read the neumes)? Or are you talking about the choir?
I’ve tried to learn, but I just can’t get the hang of it. Maybe if I spent more time every week and maybe if I had a younger brain.
The kids seem to pick it up quickly (I volunteer to accompany at a traditional Latin Mass school).
Are you saying that the congregation would sing these chants (and read the neumes)? Or are you talking about the choir?
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dochawk
Guest
It’s where the windows rumble in the frame, rather than shattering . . .
It is when I sing!
hawk
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jfz178
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I think an “H” note goes with a “demented seventh chord!”
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