Pope Francis claims global economy is close to collapse and describes youth unemployment rates as an ‘atrocity’ in damning message

[seekerz]

True, but don’t a lot of things start with what happens at home? Shouldn’t those problems be fixed first before larger economies are addressed?

Globalization affects all economies, except perhaps that of South Korea (?) so I still don’t get your point. SK aside, I don’t think it makes sense to discuss an economy of any size I know of, without simultaneously considering the global economy (including international trade and financial policies)

Seems like so far all we’ve heard up till now is how the Pope is trying to save money. As noble as that may be, it’s not exactly stimulating growth in employment. That’s the way economics works.

The Pope is living out his faith, his vows and the principles on which his order was founded; this bears little/no relationship to macroeconomic policies locally or globally. I’m confident that he understands how economics works on a broad scale (at least as well as the economists who routinely contradict each other) but his comments were not about the trivia or the mechanics so much as they were about man, not the accumulation of money, needing to be the raison d’etre of the economy. (Kind of like the way the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath). The market, cannot be the be all and end all, with man (i.e. the common good of man) a subordinate consideration.

But I’m glad to hear at least one poster on this board (I’m sure there are others) who does not see saving money/cutting spending as the primary means of fixing the economy. Of course stimulation is needed too. I’d support you in a run for Congress if you’d consider it.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The global economy is simply the amount of available money and who has it.

This is wrong on so many levels I don’t know where to begin. Money is intrical to economics but they are not synonymous. And the obsession with who has what disregards the most important aspect of economics: the potential to grow and provide more for all.

I truly hope yours is not the pope’s view but I fear that it is.

 

[seekerz]

I have presented my evidence, principally the lack of correlation between greed and youth unemployment (among very many other things). Correlation is not causation but there can be no causation without correlation. As I said, the claim that greed is the cause of youth unemployument fails that most basic test.

What kind of evidence is a restated opinion? Lack of correlation, based on what data?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

What kind of evidence is a restated opinion? Lack of correlation, based on what data?

Based on the easily observed fact that greed is not a changed quantity in human nature or society but that youth unemployment is entirely recent which is easy enough to verify if you are not old enough to remember when it wasn’t a problem.

 

[edwest2]

This is wrong on so many levels I don’t know where to begin. Money is intrical to economics but they are not synonymous. And the obsession with who has what disregards the most important aspect of economics: the potential to grow and provide more for all.

I truly hope yours is not the pope’s view but I fear that it is.

Your fear is well-founded.

aflcio.org/Blog/Global-Action/Not-Your-Father-s-Pope-Francis-Calls-for-Legitimate-Redistribution-of-Wealth

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Regarding the Pope’s comments on war. Let’s have a look:

armscontrol.org/act/2012_10/US-Dominated-Global-Arms-Trade-in-2011

Publicly available information on military planning for the top countries who have the capacity to wage war shows that major wars are not on the horizon. They have been replaced by what are called “Low-Intensity Conflicts,” meaning limited but ongoing engagements around the world for the usual: land, natural resources and import-export agreements, including arms sales. Oil and gas are going to be the big surprises because they are weapons as well, but they are gradually being replaced.

Aside from arms sales, the rich are facing a wealth crisis because the things they’ve relied on for close to a century are about to be replaced and they are going to have to find new sources of wealth. This will cut into their fun time. But they will have no choice. That is how it will go - if they want to keep their wealth, they are going to have to do something they haven’t done in a while - work for it.

Peace,
Ed

 

[ProVobis]

But I’m glad to hear at least one poster on this board (I’m sure there are others) who does not see saving money/cutting spending as the primary means of fixing the economy. Of course stimulation is needed too. I’d support you in a run for Congress if you’d consider it.

Thanks. People, even the best of economists, forget that one little variable, velocity. The Fed knows simply printing more money is like pushing a string. You have to keep money moving. Economy is dynamic and anyone who thinks simply by giving or paying once or twice to someone in need or not in need is going to have long-term benefits better go back to school. I’m not saying this is what the Pope says, though. He’s doing his job the best he can, I’m sure, but unless people start with their own pocketbooks, a lot of time is wasted. Governments and states aren’t going to fix these problems. The $4 trillion that the Fed printed and is just sitting there says so.

 

[sallybutler]

Thanks. People, even the best of economists, forget that one little variable, velocity. The Fed knows simply printing more money is like pushing a string. You have to keep money moving. Economy is dynamic and anyone who thinks simply by giving or paying once or twice to someone in need or not in need is going to have long-term benefits better go back to school. I’m not saying this is what the Pope says, though. He’s doing his job the best he can, I’m sure, but unless people start with their own pocketbooks, a lot of time is wasted. Governments and states aren’t going to fix these problems. The $4 trillion that the Fed printed and is just sitting there says so.

You mean you have to spend money to make money. Say it ain’t so, Joe.

 

[seekerz]

Based on the easily observed fact that greed is not a changed quantity in human nature or society but that youth unemployment is entirely recent which is easy enough to verify if you are not old enough to remember when it wasn’t a problem.

My age is not the subject of this debate. Never ask a lady

Greed has not increased? It’s my turn to ask how old you are!

What then is driving the ***increasing ***accumulation of growing wealth in the hands of a miniscule percentage, coupled with the continued exploitation of every tax loophole/ tax avoidance strategy the human mind can conceive? (While we’re on that topic, research the top salaries at the first 10 ‘non-profits’ that come to your mind - yes, and you may include ‘charities’) Are they holding the wealth in trust for our descendants?

What explains the stagnation of wages while the stock market breaks successive records? Do corporations make money out of thin air and gain nothing at all from the productivity of their workers?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

My age is not the subject of this debate. Never ask a lady

Greed has not increased? It’s my turn to ask how old you are!

Old enough to remember when youth were not disproportionately unemployed.

What then is driving the ***increasing ***accumulation of growing wealth in the hands of a miniscule percentage, coupled with the continued exploitation of every tax loophole/ tax avoidance strategy the human mind can conceive? (While we’re on that topic, research the top salaries at the first 10 ‘non-profits’ that come to your mind - yes, and you may include ‘charities’) Are they holding the wealth in trust for our descendants?

What explains the stagnation of wages while the stock market breaks successive records? Do corporations make money out of thin air and gain nothing at all from the productivity of their workers?

These are all fair questions. But can we agree that greed is not new? Nor, for that matter, is tax avoidance nor the disproportionate distribution of wealth. All of these things are as old as humanity. Are modern CEO salaries more disproportianate than the wealth of feudal lords?

But then there is novel phenomenon of youth unemployment, unprecedented in human history. Can anyone think of another time in history when the young were so unemployable? I can’t.

 

[seekerz]

Old enough to remember when youth were not disproportionately unemployed.

These are all fair questions. But can we agree that greed is not new? Nor, for that matter, is tax avoidance nor the disproportionate distribution of wealth. All of these things are as old as humanity. Are modern CEO salaries more disproportianate than the wealth of feudal lords?

But then there is novel phenomenon of youth unemployment, unprecedented in human history. Can anyone think of another time in history when the young were so unemployable? I can’t.

Neither is youth unemployment new - it is simply worse (to our knowledge) than at any other time. We are comparing two phenomena that are at levels never seen before: youth unemployment and greed. Why is that an unfair comparison?

 

[sallybutler]

Bubba,

While greed as a vice has not increased, greed as a virtue has.

Pay attention to commercials. How many say you deserve (fill in the blank). How many say take care of yourself first.

I like HGTV. However, many of the people on the shows are extremely annoying in what they think thy should have. Exactly why do people need a bedroom as big as an apartment? Especially when most of them aren’t going to spend most of their waking hours in that room. And don’t get me started on closets.

We hold people like Buffett and Zuckerman and Gates and the Koch brothers up as people to emulate instead of people like Mother Teresa and underpaid, overworked teachers, and people running soup kitchens.

So yes, there is more overt greed in the world.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Bubba,

While greed as a vice has not increased, greed as a virtue has.

Pay attention to commercials. How many say you deserve (fill in the blank). How many say take care of yourself first.

I like HGTV. However, many of the people on the shows are extremely annoying in what they think thy should have. Exactly why do people need a bedroom as big as an apartment? Especially when most of them aren’t going to spend most of their waking hours in that room. And don’t get me started on closets.

We hold people like Buffett and Zuckerman and Gates and the Koch brothers up as people to emulate instead of people like Mother Teresa and underpaid, overworked teachers, and people running soup kitchens.

So yes, there is more overt greed in the world.

And you don’t think we’d find any of that in 1950s post-WWII advertising or roaring 20s advertising?

I’ll be even feudal peasants wanted bigger mud huts and I doubt anyone was wagging a finger at them for their greed.

 

[ishii]

Ah, I see. The Pope is wrong because he doesn’t agree with you. I rest the case made in my previous post.

Oh, I see, and reality is what, according to you?

I don’t think its fair to ridicule someone because you disagree with them - or because they disagree with the pope’s opinion on economics. Faith and morals, si. But economics? switzler has presented a fair case for his/her contention which I might not agree with completely. But its not like he/she hasn’t presented a case. Regarding youth unemployment I think its fair to ask which country is being referred to - or is the Pope referring to global youth unemployment? Italy? The reason is because different countries have different economic systems and therefore one would expect different explanations as to why a segment of the population would face a high unemployment rate. I have commented on America’s situation. It is complex and includes a variety of factors. The economy has been transformed in the past few decades. The days of getting a college degree and then fairly easily getting a salaried job went out with bell bottoms, I’m afraid. I would encourage young people to learn a skill - be it accounting, business management, computer/tech related field - something useful. A liberal arts degree is great - but be prepared to apply at Starbucks after graduating.

Regarding greed - I think rather than focusing on the usual liberal targets: corporations, CEO’s, “the top 10%” etc. I think we ought to focus on perhaps the people that Mother Teresa was referring to when she said, “its a poverty that a child must die so that you might live as you wish.” It is not my intention to bring up abortion (really) but I think we have a culture that increasingly values material goods. Our poor even have cell phones and flat screen TV’s. So maybe greed is on the rise after all - but its not the greed of corporate fat cats necessarily, but plain old garden variety greed. Isn’t it greed with a little envy thrown in that motivates someone to insist on lots of “free stuff” from the government? Isn’t it greed that motivates people to insist the government confiscate money from the wealthy and redistribute it to the poor?

Ishii

 

[ishii]

Bubba,

While greed as a vice has not increased, greed as a virtue has.

Pay attention to commercials. How many say you deserve (fill in the blank). How many say take care of yourself first.

I like HGTV. However, many of the people on the shows are extremely annoying in what they think thy should have. Exactly why do people need a bedroom as big as an apartment? Especially when most of them aren’t going to spend most of their waking hours in that room. And don’t get me started on closets.

We hold people like Buffett and Zuckerman and Gates and the Koch brothers up as people to emulate instead of people like Mother Teresa and underpaid, overworked teachers, and people running soup kitchens.

So yes, there is more overt greed in the world.

I agree that greed is on the upswing. Along with envy. That is why demagogues in the Democrat party get so much political mileage out of their attacks on “the rich.” It is greed and envy, pure and simple. That is a factor in all of this. I am willing to agree that there is greed and materialism among people with money. Why is it so hard to understand that the non-rich can be just as materialistic and greedy themselves - or more so? I suspect that the reason is because of politics. Admitting that the “poor” or “working families” are greedy too would undermine the narrative which has given the Democrats political power for many years.

Ishii

 

[faithsmind]

I agree that greed is on the upswing. Along with envy. That is why demagogues in the Democrat party get so much political mileage out of their attacks on “the rich.” It is greed and envy, pure and simple. That is a factor in all of this. I am willing to agree that there is greed and materialism among people with money. Why is it so hard to understand that the non-rich can be just as materialistic and greedy themselves - or more so? I suspect that the reason is because of politics. Admitting that the “poor” or “working families” are greedy too would undermine the narrative which has given the Democrats political power for many years.

Ishii

Yeah, I agree.
Insatiable thirst for money does drive the economy, but the poor peeps want to keep up with the Jones’s as well, getting themselves into greedy debt, and this is not good. The other problem is “When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin

In one year, I more than quadrupled my income, but my standard of living barely went up 10 percent. I am behind in my taxes. It’s unfathomable, and I’m simply just trying to keep my kids in a private school so they don’t get brainwashed by Planned Parenthood and these other special interest groups who have found they can vote themselves money. Yikes!

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Neither is youth unemployment new - it is simply worse (to our knowledge) than at any other time. We are comparing two phenomena that are at levels never seen before: youth unemployment and greed. Why is that an unfair comparison?

Disproportionate youth unemployement is what is new, i.e. youth experiencing worse unemployment than others as opposed to better or same. Good luck finding any articles on high youth unemployment from more than 20 years ago. Greed is unchanged, as I noted. Nobody has yet offered any example of greed, no matter how you twist that term, that is without historical parallel.

 

[sallybutler]

I agree that greed is on the upswing. Along with envy. That is why demagogues in the Democrat party get so much political mileage out of their attacks on “the rich.” It is greed and envy, pure and simple. That is a factor in all of this. I am willing to agree that there is greed and materialism among people with money. Why is it so hard to understand that the non-rich can be just as materialistic and greedy themselves - or more so? I suspect that the reason is because of politics. Admitting that the “poor” or “working families” are greedy too would undermine the narrative which has given the Democrats political power for many years.

Ishii

I think you missed my point. I think the non-rich are just as greedy as the rich. I also think that greed at all levels has become a virtue in America. Self sacrifice is more admirable when it results in getting something for one’s self than when it helps someone else.

The number of national news stories promoting ‘success’ stories outnumber stories about people going the extra step to help others. How many newspapers or television stations are devoted to making money and how many are devoted to showing self sacrifice?

Yes, there are the isolated shows and stories here and there. And EWTN has lots on the lives of the saints. But those are not watched as much as the other ones.

 

[edwest2]

My age is not the subject of this debate. Never ask a lady

Greed has not increased? It’s my turn to ask how old you are!

What then is driving the ***increasing ***accumulation of growing wealth in the hands of a miniscule percentage, coupled with the continued exploitation of every tax loophole/ tax avoidance strategy the human mind can conceive? (While we’re on that topic, research the top salaries at the first 10 ‘non-profits’ that come to your mind - yes, and you may include ‘charities’) Are they holding the wealth in trust for our descendants?

What explains the stagnation of wages while the stock market breaks successive records? Do corporations make money out of thin air and gain nothing at all from the productivity of their workers?

How about “short selling”? What a racket.

online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703957904575252611852571860

The corporations are only refilling their coffers. Money from the Federal Reserve is practically free, so when inflation starts again, all that paper will be worth a little more. You should check on all the new construction going on in your area. Obviously, nobody’s paying for that or will buy, rent, lease or shop there

Peace,
Ed

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I think you missed my point. I think the non-rich are just as greedy as the rich. I also think that greed at all levels has become a virtue in America. Self sacrifice is more admirable when it results in getting something for one’s self than when it helps someone else.

Right, but remember, the claim that greed is causing youth unemployment hinges not on the existence of greed, no matter how pervasiave, but on a recent surge in it.

To make a comparison, it would be perfectly reasonable to say that lust is the cause of prostitution. Both are as old as history. But if there were a sudden surge in youth prostitution it would be absurd to blame it on lust. The connection between youth unemployment and greed is even less reasonable since unemployment is not caused by greed.

The number of national news stories promoting ‘success’ stories outnumber stories about people going the extra step to help others. How many newspapers or television stations are devoted to making money and how many are devoted to showing self sacrifice?

Yes, there are the isolated shows and stories here and there. And EWTN has lots on the lives of the saints. But those are not watched as much as the other ones.

I doubt there is a period in history where people did not gaze admiringly and enviously on the lives of the rich and famous.