Pope Francis criticises ‘fundamentalist’ Catholics

[pnewton]

It teaches us to learn how to put away the journalistic calumny and hear the Holy SPirit speak through him with our faith and faith-filled reason. We have to really listen.

This is exactly why I consider the Holy Father a brilliant communicator. Like Jesus, he is simplistic and direct. Like Jesus, he leaves his disciples with more questions than they had before. He is challenging. I know that this is difficult for the type of mind set that prefers more of an instruction manual style of teaching, but not all learn the same way. Perhaps this is why the Holy Father is not on the same level as what he calls fundamentalists.

 

[friardchips]

I’m definitely on your wavelength. This is a time of making the royal Priesthood of the people in some way manifest through the Church.

1141 The celebrating assembly is the community of the baptized who, "by regeneration and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, are consecrated to be a spiritual house and a holy priesthood, that through all the works of Christian men they may offer spiritual sacrifices."9 This “common priesthood” is that of Christ the sole priest, in which all his members participate:10

Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that full, conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy, and to which the Christian people, “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people,” have a right and an obligation by reason of their Baptism.11 - Catechism of the Catholic Church

And Pope Francis being a Jesuit living by the Rule of St Ignatius and being a spiritual director (remember he said he wanted to lead the Curia in the Spiritual Exercises)…is the perfect Pope to lead us in contemplating gospel stories for Truth and Gods will. Spiritual Directors don’t tell people what they have to believe. They refer them to relevant gospel stories and encourage the personal, living relationship between Christ and the directee.

This is exactly why I consider the Holy Father a brilliant communicator. Like Jesus, he is simplistic and direct. Like Jesus, he leaves his disciples with more questions than they had before. He is challenging. I know that this is difficult for the type of mind set that prefers more of an instruction manual style of teaching, but not all learn the same way. Perhaps this is why the Holy Father is not on the same level as what he calls fundamentalists.

pnewton and LongingSoul, there is a saying in which I saw on ‘Romero’ - (the biographic): "He saw with the mind of the Church.’ This could be said of Pope Francis. “The mind of the Church” is not boxed in; she reaches out - mercy, mercy, mercy. The opposite sits in a corner with arms tightly clasped around what she has. Unwilling to share. Unwilling to be open. Unwilling to be guided. Reminds me a little of the Jews who did not accept their Heavenly King when He came. And then fundamental thinking achieves the same by snuffling out the inspirations of the Holy Spirit. To see and speak with “the mind of the Church” is, as you say, not a convoluted way but a “simplistic” and straight-forward one - this is “brilliant”, miraculous even, because it is (Holy) Spirit-filled.

 

[phil19034]

I’m a cradle Catholic and can’t think of any Catholic I’ve met either that thinks this way. However, for a time before World War 11 and during were a lot of even American Catholics who did believe that non Catholics went to hell. In fact I believe we learned that in parochial school. Also anti Semitism was alive and well too as well as racial intolerance. However I believe in the last 50 years or so, that’s changed. I’m hoping that the Pope isn’t meaning that traditional Catholics are fundamentalists, that is, some of us who occasionally attend a Tridentine Mass, receive Communion on the tongue, and don’t question Church doctrine on marriage, abortion, or Communion for remarried couples.

We Americans have to remember that this has changed (for the most part) in AMERICA. But there are still some Catholics (I was discriminated against by one) who do not live upto the Gospel and who are judgmental, etc.

I once dated a girl and was discriminated against because my mother is Spanish and my father part Italian. My girlfriend’s dad (a Croatian background - and Catholic) said that my background was “too close to Africa” for him. He would not allow his daughter to date me.

I was devastated… I had been discriminated against before by rural protestants, but here was a rural Catholic (granted an poorly educated one) discriminating against me.

Another example: in the Pocono Mountains, there is a small, rural mountain town that had 3 Roman Catholic Churches, plus one Byzantine Catholic Church – four Catholic Churches in all. Of the three Latin Churches, one was of Italian descent, one of Irish decent and the third was German descent. Everyone hated each other and when the 3 Latin Churches merged, it was ugly… Irish Catholics calling the Italian Catholics “dirty waps,” Italians calling the Irish “filthy Mcs” and no one liking the Germans… etc. Plus all three didn’t trust the Byzantine Catholics. It was a VERY UGLY time. Granted, this was all back in 2012!!!

Outside of America, there are still parts of the Eastern Europe, etc where Catholic vs Protestant or Catholic vs Orthodox exists.

The Pope and the Bishops know of this stuff. Remember, heretics are not just to the left, they can be to the far right too.

God Bless

 

[LongingSoul]

This is exactly why I consider the Holy Father a brilliant communicator. Like Jesus, he is simplistic and direct. Like Jesus, he leaves his disciples with more questions than they had before. He is challenging. I know that this is difficult for the type of mind set that prefers more of an instruction manual style of teaching, but not all learn the same way. Perhaps this is why the Holy Father is not on the same level as what he calls fundamentalists.

After I did the Spiritual Exercises in 2011, I joined a group of other directees that began discerning whether to become spiritual directors themselves. I talked to a guy there who said that the first time he tried the exercises many years prior, his director suggested he wasn’t ready for them and could try again at another time. He had wanted the spiritual director to tell him what to do and who he was and just couldn’t get the hang of being present to Jesus just as himself. He needed someone to translate between himself and the gospel Jesus. That’s not how spiritual direction works though.

What Pope Francis is, is thoroughly Ignatian and I believe that even with teaching documents like Laudato si which seem like far left ideas to some, in time will be seen as moderate gospel teaching completely in accord with how ancient Christians regarded the environment and its esteemed value to man.

 

[Genesis315]

I don’t think the Holy Father is good at communicating. A good quality for a Pope should be that he’s a good theologian and communicator. The Pope Emeritus was both

I think we’ve been spoiled a bit in the last couple centuries where, almost without exception, there were truly great men in the Chair of Peter. We need to have compassion on the Holy Father, since he is very much a man of a certain time, with all the baggage that came along with it. That being said, a Pope’s authority is tied to his office, not his personal merits–he could be the worst scoundrel or just plain stupid, and so long as he holds that office, when he teaches or governs he has the same authority as the most brilliant and saintly Pope and his acts of office deserve the same respect. At the same time, the Church is not the Pope’s body, but Christ’s–a distinction the media, and even some clergy, often fail to make…

 

[commenter]

For a long time, the** flaws of liberalism** have been held up as the worst sickness of the Church but now it’s prudent to examine the other extreme in the flaws of fundamentalism. I believe we should make a wholesale effort to be clear what fundamentalism refers to in order that we know the enemy we need to fight… especially on a global scale. ‘Relativistic fundamentalist’ is an oxymoron.

Anyone who has spent any time with the hard religious Left has dealt with fundamentalists. The LCWR types, Call to Action, Network, and portions of the Peace and Justice Movement have a very definite agenda. They are no longer talking about “dialogue” they have moved beyond relativism, they have their own dogmas - or often, the Media’s dogmas - they want to impose on everyone.

They are highly judgmental of anyone who disagrees with them. They were liberals, but have gone on to a secular humanist agenda - using the resources and credibility of the Church. We are not talking about “flaws of liberalism” here. These are fundamentalists, but different from the ones we usually think of.

 

[LongingSoul]

I think we’ve been spoiled a bit in the last couple centuries where, almost without exception, there were truly great men in the Chair of Peter. We need to have compassion on the Holy Father, since he is very much a man of a certain time, with all the baggage that came along with it. That being said, a Pope’s authority is tied to his office, not his personal merits–he could be the worst scoundrel or just plain stupid, and so long as he holds that office, when he teaches or governs he has the same authority as the most brilliant and saintly Pope and his acts of office deserve the same respect. At the same time, the Church is not the Pope’s body, but Christ’s–a distinction the media, and even some clergy, often fail to make…

If a leader had to be a good communicator, Moses would have been a big fail. He tried hard to convince God that he was hopeless at speaking to an audience but God said get on with it chump. Aaron can do the official talking bit.

 

[graciew]

We Americans have to remember that this has changed (for the most part) in AMERICA. But there are still some Catholics (I was discriminated against by one) who do not live upto the Gospel and who are judgmental, etc.

I once dated a girl and was discriminated against because my mother is Spanish and my father part Italian. My girlfriend’s dad (a Croatian background - and Catholic) said that my background was “too close to Africa” for him. He would not allow his daughter to date me.

I was devastated… I had been discriminated against before by rural protestants, but here was a rural Catholic (granted an poorly educated one) discriminating against me.

Another example: in the Pocono Mountains, there is a small, rural mountain town that had 3 Roman Catholic Churches, plus one Byzantine Catholic Church – four Catholic Churches in all. Of the three Latin Churches, one was of Italian descent, one of Irish decent and the third was German descent. Everyone hated each other and when the 3 Latin Churches merged, it was ugly… Irish Catholics calling the Italian Catholics “dirty waps,” Italians calling the Irish “filthy Mcs” and no one liking the Germans… etc. Plus all three didn’t trust the Byzantine Catholics. It was a VERY UGLY time. Granted, this was all back in 2012!!!

Outside of America, there are still parts of the Eastern Europe, etc where Catholic vs Protestant or Catholic vs Orthodox exists.

The Pope and the Bishops know of this stuff. Remember, heretics are not just to the left, they can be to the far right too.

God Bless

That must have hurt…Thanks for sharing. .

 

[friardchips]

If a leader had to be a good communicator, Moses would have been a big fail. He tried hard to convince God that he was hopeless at speaking to an audience but God said get on with it chump. Aaron can do the official talking bit.

I love that account. Moses is so very, well…human!

(It is a shame more people don’t have access to the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises).

 

[friardchips]

Anyone who has spent any time with the hard religious Left has dealt with fundamentalists. The LCWR types, Call to Action, Network, and portions of the Peace and Justice Movement have a very definite agenda. They are no longer talking about “dialogue” they have moved beyond relativism, they have their own dogmas - or often, the Media’s dogmas - they want to impose on everyone.

They are highly judgmental of anyone who disagrees with them. They were liberals, but have gone on to a secular humanist agenda - using the resources and credibility of the Church. We are not talking about “flaws of liberalism” here. These are fundamentalists, but different from the ones we usually think of.

This kind of thing rings a bell. What is LWCR, please (sorry…)?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m a cradle Catholic and can’t think of any Catholic I’ve met either that thinks this way. However, for a time before World War 11 and during were a lot of even American Catholics who did believe that non Catholics went to hell. In fact I believe we learned that in parochial school. Also anti Semitism was alive and well too as well as racial intolerance. However I believe in the last 50 years or so, that’s changed. I’m hoping that the Pope isn’t meaning that traditional Catholics are fundamentalists, that is, some of us who occasionally attend a Tridentine Mass, receive Communion on the tongue, and don’t question Church doctrine on marriage, abortion, or Communion for remarried couples.

Not just in the last 50 years. I went to parochial school in the Ozarks in the 1950s, and we were certainly not told all protestants go to hell. Nor were we taught anti-semitism or racism. Quite the contrary. There were no blacks living here at the time, but my father’s first job was given to him by a Jew. Interesting guy, too. He was also a Mason. How he managed that, i don’t know. Back then, the membership in the Masons and the KKK were essentially the same, so he might have been in the KKK too, for all I know. He was open about being a Jew, too. From the stories, I take it he was a very talented guy.

 

[friardchips]

Not just in the last 50 years. I went to parochial school in the Ozarks in the 1950s, and we were certainly not told all protestants go to hell. Nor were we taught anti-semitism or racism. Quite the contrary. There were no blacks living here at the time, but my father’s first job was given to him by a Jew. Interesting guy, too. He was also a Mason. How he managed that, i don’t know. Back then, the membership in the Masons and the KKK were essentially the same, so he might have been in the KKK too, for all I know. He was open about being a Jew, too. From the stories, I take it he was a very talented guy.

And possibly confused?!

 

[LongingSoul]

I love that account. Moses is so very, well…human!

(It is a shame more people don’t have access to the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises).

Honestly, I suspect Pope Francis is leading a new way of doing the Exercises from the Seat of Peter.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

People who have the religion, but not spirituality tend to be fundamentalists and I know a few Catholic Fundamentalists.

Years ago I heard an interview with Pastor Rick Warren where he was asked what a fundamentalist is ?

His answer was spot on.

He said, “a fundamentalist is a person who has stopped listening.”

In other words, they read the text of the law and believe that’s all there is to know and stop listening to learn from the Holy Spirit, what the deeper meaning is.

It doesn’t matter if its the Bible, the Rubrics of the Mass, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They know the text, but not its spiritual meaning. This is the result of not listening to the Holy Spirit, or having religion without spirituality.

Jim

 

[Thomas_White]

Why would he say that? I guess then that he doesn’t like the way his immediate predecessor believed, because if any Catholic was ever a fundamentalist it was and still is Pope Benedict Emeritus. I’m sorry, but this Pope leaves me scratching my head way too often.

Religious fundamentalism is the view of scripture, dogma and doctrine as fixed and unchanging. Pope Benedict Emeritus, who provided the primary theological influence for Dei Verbum, the dogmatic constitution on divine revelation, is most definitely not a fundamentalist.

 

[commenter]

This kind of thing rings a bell. What is LWCR, please (sorry…)?

LCWR is “Leadership Conference of Women Religious”.

 

[friardchips]

Religious fundamentalism is the view of scripture, dogma and doctrine as fixed and unchanging. Pope Benedict Emeritus, who provided the primary theological influence for Dei Verbum, the dogmatic constitution on divine revelation, is most definitely not a fundamentalist.

I don’t think any Popes thought of doctrines this way.

Dogmas are fixed. This is not fundamentalism. Doctrines develop and Dogmas illumine. Neither are obsolete.

 

[friardchips]

Honestly, I suspect Pope Francis is leading a new way of doing the Exercises from the Seat of Peter.

So now we don’t need engineering degrees to be Jesuits!

 

[Vaseljen]

I think your pope is trying too hard to be liked by the secular world. I liked pope Benedict more, he did not care if the chair is golden or wooden, and didn’t talk all the time about global warning or unemployment, he tried to save the old mass, and he was somehow more challenging intellectually.

But i am just an Orthodox Christian so what do i know, but i know one thing, we are allergic to any Liturgical change or God forbid abuse.

 

[RACJ]

It is a good thing. It means you are having to discern. There are a lot of lies about and a lot of agendas. He is the perfect Pope for the times because we have to trust and put heart into our research. It teaches us to learn how to put away the journalistic calumny and hear the Holy SPirit speak through him with our faith and faith-filled reason. We have to really listen. Every Pope for each era must challenge us not make us all complacent. No one said that Catholicism is about painting by numbers. Our integrity is needed in order to be wise for there are, as another poster said, wolves on the prowl. If we pray then we will hear. The Lord said that His sheep know His voice.

I surely hope that you are right!