Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

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Timothysis said:
The Holy Father says this is regard to “trickle-down economics;”* This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naive trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system.”*
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You combine two quotes out of context here. He says: “Some people continue to defend** trickle-down theories which assume** that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world”
 
jimmy said:
That isn’t what the quote from the pope says, atleast as quoted. It implies that there should be higher taxes and more regulation. I agree with Timothysis’s post.
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Nope he did not say pay higher taxes nor did he mention regulation, I am thinking his hope is for those who earn money enough to pay taxes will gladly do so and not begrudgingly, and as I said before not, meanly or greedily, look for ways so as not to pay any at all. I don’t understand why people kid themselves so! peace, Carlan
 
  1. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system.
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cough Reagonomics cough
  1. The need to resolve the structural causes of poverty cannot be delayed, not only for the pragmatic reason of its urgency for the good order of society, but because society needs to be cured of a sickness which is weakening and frustrating it, and which can only lead to new crises. Welfare projects, which meet certain urgent needs, should be considered merely temporary responses. As long as the problems of the poor are not radically resolved by rejecting the absolute autonomy of markets and financial speculation and by attacking the structural causes of inequality,[173] no solution will be found for the world’s problems or, for that matter, to any problems. Inequality is the root of social ills.
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Spot on, Holy Father. We can’t leave the markets to themselves, and we can’t have these vast inequalities and expect a peaceful and happy society. The only real solution is a strong moral foundation rooted in Christ. And that compels us not to support a vast welfare state, since welfare is only a temporary response to those desperately in need.
  1. We can no longer trust in the unseen forces and the invisible hand of the market.
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Austrians? 😉

I think what one finds at the center of the Pope’s message is that we need Jesus and a cultural and ideological renewal based on Christ. Otherwise there will continue to be problems regardless of the technical solution.
 
Dranu said:
You combine two quotes out of context here. He says: “Some people continue to defend** trickle-down theories which assume** that **economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably **succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world”
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The two quotes come from the same paragraph in the article and are both written about the same thing, “trickle-down economics.” :confused:
 
Carlan said:
Nope he did not say pay higher taxes nor did he mention regulation, I am thinking his hope is for those who earn money enough to pay taxes will gladly do so and not begrudgingly, and as I said before not, meanly or greedily, look for ways so as not to pay any at all. I don’t understand why people kid themselves so! peace, Carlan
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At the heart of “trickle-down economics” is the concept of lower taxes and less government regulation. To criticize this is to suggest that they are wrong and should be reversed.
 
CrossofChrist said:
Spot on, Holy Father. We can’t leave the markets to themselves, and we can’t have these vast inequalities and expect a peaceful and happy society.
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The Bolsheviks thought the same.

So, what is the answer? At what point does ones possessions become an inequality to others and what should be done about it?
 
Timothysis said:
The Bolsheviks thought the same.
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A broken clock is right twice a day.
So, what is the answer?
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A society centered on Jesus. I think that’s pretty clear from the Pope’s message (although the media is already using the “trickle down economics” phrase to add to their caricature of Pope Francis as a liberal :rolleyes:).
  1. Precisely because this involves the internal consistency of our message about the value of the human person, the Church cannot be expected to change her position on this question. I want to be completely honest in this regard. This is not something subject to alleged reforms or “modernizations”. It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life.
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I think some of you just need to be honest and admit that you simply do not believe in the teachings of Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis in regards to the economy. I mean honestly, it’s hard to see how the Holy Father could have been any more clear in these statements. He very obviously does not like this gung ho laissez faire form of economics. It is almost to the point where the Pope is saying “The Kettle is black” and others immediately said “The pope isn’t saying the kettle is black!”.

Although this is the strongest statement to date, this is just a repeat of what the Holy Father has been alluding to and saying for some time: The current world economic system, built off of a selfish form of capitalism, is not just. We have to give a bigger space for helping the poor and we have to combat the tendency towards selfishness and materialism that is seemingly inherent in the current system.

But I have no idea why I am saying this, because if you don’t listen to the words of the Holy Father, you certainly won’t be listening to me. 🤷
 
This must be a real stab-in-the-back to those who support Reaganomics.
 
Timothysis said:
The two quotes come from the same paragraph in the article and are both written about the same thing, “trickle-down economics.” :confused:
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Yes, but you failed to mention he did not condemn each and every version of ‘trickle down economics’. He condemned * trickle-down** theories which assume** that economic growth, encouraged by a free market,** will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world**.* He condemned THAT specifically, not ‘trickle down’ (in its many meanings) generally.

The logical implications do not mean the Bolshevistic doom you fear nor the pure anti-capitalism TRH1292 giddily seems to think is so obvious.

Thats a good thing methinks ;). Though it would surely be prudential judgment anyhow.
 
CrossofChrist said:
cough Reagonomics cough

Spot on, Holy Father. We can’t leave the markets to themselves, and we can’t have these vast inequalities and expect a peaceful and happy society. The only real solution is a strong moral foundation rooted in Christ. And that compels us not to support a vast welfare state, since welfare is only a temporary response to those desperately in need.

Austrians? 😉
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Indeed. The idolatrous cult (I can’t think of a better word) given to people like Hayek and von Mises in some corners of the Internet is scary. 😃
I think what one finds at the center of the Pope’s message is that we need Jesus and a cultural and ideological renewal based on Christ. Otherwise there will continue to be problems regardless of the technical solution.
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Exactly. The solution isn’t “more government” or “more business”; it’s more Christianity. 👍
 
TRH1292 said:
Although this is the strongest statement to date, this is just a repeat of what the Holy Father has been alluding to and saying for some time: The current world economic system, built off of a selfish form of capitalism, is not just. We have to give a bigger space for helping the poor and we have to combat the tendency towards selfishness and materialism that is seemingly inherent in the current system… There is a clear difference between a world driven by economic forces of consumerism and greed and the use of the State violence to redistribute. I think if you read the Exhortation of the Pope (rather than the media’s interpretation), you will find his condemnation is more to Ayn Randian philosophies (long condemned by the Church; explicitly or implicitly) than capitalistic ideas on the use of State force in the economy.

It is possibly to read an implied condemnation of the latter, but it is a forced interpretation and one that does not follow from the literal words of the text.
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I’m not sure the Holy Father is qualified as an economist, although I agree that the worship of money is wrong. Socialism has proven to not create as much wealth as a system that rewards hard work and industry, and allows the industrious and visionaries in society to create wealth and prosperity. .

It sounds like he considers government to be the best way to distribute wealth to the poor. Unfortunately, governments become corrupt and greedy for power and control, just like the private sector. And sometimes well meaning government programs create indolence and dependence, and rob individuals of dignity.
 
Country_Gal said:
I’m not sure the Holy Father is qualified as an economist…
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Most economists wouldn’t really be “qualified” for economics either if we actually held them accountable for their many failed predictions. 😉
 
Timothysis said:
Actually, his message is a critique of a certain economic system that, in his opinion, does not provide for all. Critiquing lower taxes as a means to spur economic growth is far more than simply telling us to "think of others and put their good ahead of our own." Other than being a champion of the poor and marginalized, I don’t see the point of what he said. Crippling taxes imposed on the wealthy and successful are not going to bring about a change in “income inequality.” I also find it odd that the Holy Father would use a term that is mostly used by political liberals - the same who support abortion and gay marriage - as something sought by the Church.
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What exactly would be considered a “crippling tax” on the wealthy? There are people who could quite comfortably pay 95% income tax and still have way more than they will ever need. Those same people act as if paying 35% is going to leave them starving in the street. :rolleyes:

Do I advocate higher taxes? Not really, because I don’t think government does a very good job of allocating resources or running much of anything. Healthcare.gov anyone?

What I do advocate is for the rich to give away that 95% of their own free will to help the poor. I can guarantee you the Pope would agree with that. He would much rather see people give away what they can with love than have it taxed.

But let’s be realistic for a minute…most wealthy individuals wouldn’t be wealthy to begin with if they didn’t have some amount of disordered love for money. So higher taxes may be the lesser evil when the alternative is that people keep silly amounts of money stashed away - amounts that they would have a hard time spending on themselves even if they tried. That was the point of quoting the passage from Luke.
 
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