Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

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Hello Darryl1958,

You make excellent observations on human nature regardless to class and the appetite for envy (it is a nearly invincible Green Eye).
If I understand correctly, you maintain that envy is indeed classless (without class no pun intended); I quite agree.
Social struggle has manifested itself in many ways as you itemized.
The instruction from scripture is clear on that account Romans 3:10 There are none righteous no not one.
I need to be a little cautious here (being a Calvinist); I do not welcome the concepts brought forth by Pope Francis on the general issues which are culturally understood as social justice.
Yet the sum total of Evangelii Gaudium by Pope Francis was in context quite instructional, in both practical and spiritual aspects.
Given his (supposed) understanding of how his words will be received I would have hoped for something other than more.
The “sympathetic culture of indigency” is a negative force against productive efforts to relieve suffering.
The very people needing help are used as merchandise by social activists, I pray Pope Francis avoids this temptation.
Regardless I found the sum total of the report by Pope Francis to be appropriate for instruction to the Church and the culture of our time.
 
On whole, I rather liked Evangelii Gaudium. For those living in the developing world, there was never a chance to see “trickle down” as it was executed in the United States under Reagan. It did work here when he did it. In fact, it spurred one of the longest and largest expansions of an economy ever.

Much of the world has never had market economies and the 3rd world has been overrun with predatory capitalism where the rhetoric of free markets did not match the reality. As the U.S. begins to get sucked into globalism, it is beginning to show here as well.

The only thing I found disconcerting in EG did not have to do with “trickle-down” but rather with the statement in Section 253 where it states that “for authentic Islam and proper reading of the Koran are opposed to every form of violence.” This is simply not true. In fact, it is wrong in a material way - and as a demonstrable matter of fact. There are Verses in the Qur’an that undeniably state it; there is authoritatively published undisputed Islamic law that undeniably affirms it; and there are Islamic countries openly facilitating such understandings. Verse 9:29 applies specifically to “people of the book” - Christians and Jews.

It is based on the Qur’an, hadith, and related authoritative texts that the “rebels” in Syria could declare as licit (under Islamic law) the raping of all Christian women in Syria this past year. You might not like it, but is says it, its there, that’s what it means.

(For those who haven’t read real Islamic law, please don’t say something silly and irrelevant like “there are many verses in the Bible that are taken out of context, blah, blah, blah.” And please don’t say its a matter of interpretation or simply a fundamentalist interpretation. The call for jihad - defined as warfare against non-Muslims to establish the religion (of Islam) - is an “interpretation” in Islam in the same way that Jesus is the the Son of God, one of three in a Trinity in an interpretation among Christians.)
 
Crossbones said:
I think he means the Catholics that believe that 47% doesn’t contribute to America since they don’t pay a very specific tax while ignoring all the other taxes and contributions they make while acting shocked that their poorly selected, socially moderate candidate gets schooled by a sitting president overseeing the worst economy since the Great Depression.
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So you believe ones opinion on the progressiveness of the US FEDERALINVOME tax defines one Catholicism.Intetesting
 
Buddyroe said:
Just as with Pope Francis, John Paul and Benedict were reported in the news in a highly editorialized manner.
With regards to Pope Francis and this latest issue, let us call it “Trickle Down” his entire thoughts are enclosed in his “Evangelii Gaudium …” vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html#

As usual the press media gets it wrong by cherry picking what they wish from this 78 page homily.
Nearly all of this report will be agreeable to any of us who claim faith in Jesus Christ.

Pope Francis did indeed debunk “trickle down economics” re. paragraph 54 of the link above to his official document. Those words were actually used in context of our common understanding.
While I don’t pretend to agree with his presuppositions on economics even to allusions using class envy, I will say the sum total of this 78 page homily is well stated with justifiable references to scripture. Any criticism and praise, needs to be placed in full context of his actual words and thoughts.

Please take time to read and enjoy his total report which is a significant work by Pope Frances.
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I believe Pope Francis makes a good point in this document, many people in economics put to must trust in those who make all the money. I think while the Pope does condemn this economic idea I think he is far from condemning capitalism. The Church doesn’t condemn or endorse capitalism. What it does condemn is unchecked capitalism which reduces people freedom, which widens the gap between rich and poor, and is just not good for society. The Pope is calling for at-least some regulation of the economy and have the economy ruled by ethics and not greed or love of money.
 
another note as always people say that this Papal document is chaging the way of thinking in the Church. But this is so wrong, while I can’t off the top of my head quote anything but the Church has always viewed capitalism is this way. The Church has always been against uncheck un regulated capitalism. Pope Francis is not changing any teaching is just re stating what the Church has taught recently and expanded a few things.
 
estesbob said:
Perhaps next time they will set up prayer zones instead of rape free zones
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You know, as far fateched as that may sound, the social protests of the 1960’a of the sex and drugs and rock and roll crowd did end up rolling out a pretty vibrant Jesus movement.

As far as OWS, morally bankrupt as it was, it has pretty much fizzled. In terms of an economic model anything other than free market economy, time and again it is being proven that nothing else is effective, may anything else is disastrous.
 
From the standpoint of a observant Catholic what is the practical effect of the document? Have anything changed on how we are to treat the poor? Have any and moral teachings changed?
 
Two words can be used to describe the current state of material disorder in the USA:
**
BLACK FRIDAY**

There is nothing wrong with Capitalism, unless it is taken to its extreme, which we in the USA have done. Creating/buying goods, and then selling those goods for a profit, is a very good thing for both sides of the deal. It is when we seek insanely high profits, or when we do not care about anything but the bottom line, or when we do not allow human concerns to enter into the equation–that is when the Capitalism train leaves the track.

Capitalism, when used properly, increases personal freedom, increases personal dignity, increases the output of a nation’s economic engine that drives a need for more jobs, etc.

Capitalism, when used improperly, leads to a loss of freedom, loss of dignity, and a loss of jobs. This is why companies and corporations (and this very nation) needs to permanently focus on God–only in that can we keep a healthy Capitalism on the tracks safely offering hope and help to all who would avail themselves of its produce.

Trickle down does in fact work when it is run by moral and Godly people–yet, nothing really functions well when God is not the center. In truth, when companies seek to make goods in honest ways, and when they seek to make honest profits that are not insanely high, and when they are willing to pay a fair wage based on their ability to pay (which is also based on how much the company earns), then trickle down is an awesome thing. Yet, when people who run companies lose sight of God, and when they lose sight of any moral foundation, then we see an imbalance as is happening now.

Black Friday, especially its newest version of starting on Thanksgiving, is a symptom of a greater sickness–a nation devoid of real morals. The world needs more God/Jesus.

Yet, with all that said, we must be very careful, because we see through history what happens when the state takes more taxes, and when the state gets more-and-more control. One of the unique things about the USA was its long held attachment to personal liberty–we cannot have the state run more things and expect to still hold true personal liberty, those do not work together. For example, if the state runs healthcare, then the state will implement all sorts of standard practices intended to be fair for everyone, yet in the meantime people’s ability to freely choose what they want in their own lives is erased, including religious freedom as well.

Trickle down works. Capitalism works. They both must be driven by a moral people. I suspect the Holy Father is trying to tell the world that our economies must be led by people who have God/Jesus as their moral foundation. In other words, we must worship God, not money.

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams​
 
Darryl1958 said:
Answering a question with a question is not the same as answering a question.
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But you responded to my question (granted, it wasn’t directed to you, but you still decided to respond) with a question. :hmmm:
 
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CaptFun:
… and to me curious. The adjective “trickle down” is found but ONCE in the document … included in a sentence that almost makes more sense without it!
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CaptFun:
Was this an editorial addition to the approved text? Did Francis*** REALLY*** go out of his way to inject this arcane and politically charged term into the midst of the English version of his document - or did the term get added (as a clarification by someone else) before the galleys left the print shop?
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You raise an interesting point here. I checked vatican.va for a Latin translation, but was unable to find one. However, there is an Italian translation of the document and in Italian, the phrase used is “ricaduta favorevole", which translates to English as “favorable relapse”. I’m no linguistic expert by any means but my guess is that the phrase “trickle down” does not easily translate from an English idiom to another language. However, in my opinion, “trickle down” and “favorable relapse” both convey the same notion, that of economic benefits flowing down from the top. I think we can eliminate any specualtion that the English translation somehow corrupts what the Pope actually said.
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CaptFun:
My point was that Pope Francis did not write a 50,000 word document “denouncing trickle-down economics” - but rather one calling us to the “Joy of Evangelizing” by title.
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CaptFun:
Which, yes, also included - in one section (section 54*** of 287!) - a caution to some that forms of capitalism "which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed*** in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world," had better not also put "… a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system."

When I saw the term “trickle-down” for about the first time since the Reagan Era (when it was used as an epithet against free market supply-side economics that proved quite a bit more successful than the previous runaway inflation period I remember) – I didn’t think of Obama at all. Nor of Obama as any stripe of capitalist. Nor that Francis had his administration in mind in this vague reference (to someone or others’ present day administration?).

By ***incidentally economic ***… I meant that Francis’ message (while including economic counsel within it) is really a call to the Faithful to be ***personally involved with their brothers and sisters. Not just in corporal matters related to “economics” - but spiritual matters related to eternal matters, like sharing our good news with joy as well as our “contributions”. And not looking to governments or philosophies ***to cover our sins of omission when Lazarus is hungry at our door. Or homeless, etc.
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I agree. Thanks for clarifying! And have a Happy Thanksgiving CaptFun!
 
ProVobis said:
I wonder what Jesus thinks of the Federal Reserve System and the trillions of dollars they counterfeit.
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Counterfeit? The government knows what the FED is doing.

QE and very poor decision making aren’t the same as illegal activity.

I bet Jesus is disappointed with robbing future generations, though.
 
Yes, Jesus’ main concern is the Federal Reserve System.He’s really worried about it. He spends a lot of time listening to conservative talk radio in heaven. He loves Rush and considers himself a dittohead! 😉
 
Country_Gal said:
Yes, Jesus’ main concern is the Federal Reserve System.He’s really worried about it. He spends a lot of time listening to conservative talk radio in heaven. He loves Rush and considers himself a dittohead! 😉
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😃

Jesus wouldn’t be worried if Volcker was chairman of the Federal Reserve. John Taylor wouldn’t be bad either. 😉
 
estesbob said:
From the standpoint of a observant Catholic what is the practical effect of the document? Have anything changed on how we are to treat the poor? Have any and moral teachings changed?
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I personally don’t see that anything has changed. I am not sure that the Pope really said anything that earth shattering, since few people would argue that our obligation to the poor is fulfilled solely by conducting our own affairs in the marketplace, even though such activity will often benefit the poor. There are things we need to do above and beyond the marketplace as well. Few people disagree with that, where the disagreement occurs is in what should be done.
 
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