Pope Francis denounces ‘trickle-down’ economic theories in critique of inequality

[estesbob]

http://i.lvme.me/272vj8h.jpg

Thank you for posting this as it highlights a point I was about to make.It is unfortunate that all of us, myself included, have looked upon this as a political document aimed at bolstering one political view over another. So we sit here arguing about the Federal Reserve, Income taxes, Occupy Wall street, et al and completely miss the message of hope and evangelization the Pope had given us.I like Poor Francis.He is bringing its back to the core purpose of the Church.Which is to bring people to Jesus Christ.We can disagree on the most effective way to do it but helping the poor is central to this evangelism. As is providing people with the dignity that goes from having a job.We (and I do include myself in that) argue over the minutiae and miss what the Pope is saying.

So let’s be clear what the Pope is saying.The solution is not liberal or conservative.Not Republican or Democrat.It is our Lord and Savior Jesus Chridt

 

[m134e5]

It is really clear from this thread that a lot of mass attending Catholics in the western world are very detached to what the Holy Father is saying and doing. Pope Francis spends most of his time with the unfortunate and advocating for them, while it seems that many on this forum prefer to spend all the time arguing against the Pope’s views, complaining about everything, and defending themselves. In short, exactly what the Pope was targeting in his extortion.

To actually hear somebody say something like “I wish the Pope would stick to spiritual matters and forget all this stuff” is a frightening amount of arrogance.

Some of The Church’s faithful in the west are so absorbed into Americanized ways of doing things, and general wordiness, that they are almost doing more harm than good.

He does seem to focus on the poor a lot. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, but there is a difference between true poverty and what many in the US consider poverty. Who are “the poor?” Is a person who makes $7.50 an hour poor? That was me once, and I still took an airplane trip halfway across the country, ate whatever I wanted whenever I wanted it, and bought myself something nice once in awhile just because I felt like it. I did all this while consistently making more money than I spent. I was financially below the poverty level, but I didn’t think of myself as poor and no one else thought of me that way either.

 

[Country_Gal]

He does seem to focus on the poor a lot. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, but there is a difference between true poverty and what many in the US consider poverty. Who are “the poor?” Is a person who makes $7.50 an hour poor? That was me once, and I still took an airplane trip halfway across the country, ate whatever I wanted whenever I wanted it, and bought myself something nice once in awhile just because I felt like it. I did all this while consistently making more money than I spent. I was financially below the poverty level, but I didn’t think of myself as poor and no one else thought of me that way either.

Dave Ramsey says not to call yourself poor when you have little money, but to say that you are broke. Labelling yourself poor brings you down. Saying you are currently broke implies that it is a temporary state of affairs.

 

[TRH1292]

The Meme certainly has a lot of truth to it. Catholic’s in America are often more concerned about politics and defending american nationalism rather than defending God’s Church and the Poor. For years many in the Church have rightly protested when some Catholic’s ignoring Church teaching on Abortion or Same Sex “Marriage”. But now, when the Pope has said something that challenges them, they are the first to dissent from his teachings.

The Church in america is infested with protestant notions of dissent. Ultimately, I think the reason so many do not like this letter is because it challenges them to get out of their comfort zone and go to the unfortunate. Frankly, I just don’t think people want to do that, so they are turning on the Holy Father.

Nearly half of the Pope’s extortion was dealing with attitudes that the Church does not need to have, many of which have been expressed quite clearly here and in other places where this letter has been discussed.

 

[m134e5]

question for you guys why does it seem like every time a pope makes a statement on economics he is seen as anti-freemarket, anti-capistist, and a liberal. It can be hard to be a Catholic and try to defend the views of the Pope when he is so misinterpreted.

The poverty in parts of Latin America, Africa, and some places in Asia are unimaginable to most people in the United States. The pope, looking at the Church from a global perspective, probably isn’t even considering what people in the US think of as poverty.

 

[einna]

The Meme certainly has a lot of truth to it. Catholic’s in America are often more concerned about politics and defending american nationalism rather than defending God’s Church and the Poor. For years many in the Church have rightly protested when some Catholic’s ignoring Church teaching on Abortion or Same Sex “Marriage”. But now, when the Pope has said something that challenges them, they are the first to dissent from his teachings.

The Church in america is infested with protestant notions of dissent. Ultimately, I think the reason so many do not like this letter is because it challenges them to get out of their comfort zone and go to the unfortunate. Frankly, I just don’t think people want to do that, so they are turning on the Holy Father.

Nearly half of the Pope’s extortion was dealing with attitudes that the Church does not need to have, many of which have been expressed quite clearly here and in other places where this letter has been discussed.

I think many in the US are already helping the less fortunate, but as was mentioned before what the majority of people see as poor in the US is not the poorest of the poor. Pope Francis has been to place that many of us cannot even imagine. People who would take any kind of job they could get to feed their family.

Look around at some of these professional sports stadiums, many of those people can’t really afford to be there. Then they go and get food stamps or ask some charities for assistance. That is not the poor the Pope is talking about. There are people dying everyday all over the world while many of us on this thread don’t worry about where their next meal is coming from. While people in the US fill hundreds of thousands of restaurants
everyday, wasting a lot of that food, there are children with little food everyday. That is what makes us uncomfortable because most of us simply are not doing enough, I include myself. That is what the Pope getting us to remember.

 

[Robert_Bay]

I had to remove a large graphic. Please be courteous of members who are still accessing CAF by modem

 

[Country_Gal]

I think he’s concerned by the global economic system that essentially turns the second and third world into poorly paid producers of goods for first world consumers. Americans, rich and poor, have insatiable appetites for more and more, much to the detriment of our spiritual lives.

Just visit Walmart, a store frequented by lower income Americans. It’s shelves are filled with goods produced abroad.

 

[Melvin]

*Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” Then he said to them, **“Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” ***And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’ “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’ “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.” Luke 12:13-21

The Holy Father’s message is simply to think of others and put their good ahead of our own. That’s not so hard to do, but we seem to find ways to complicate it anyway.

Actually, from what I have read, (and I have not read the encyclical, so you can chastise me for that if you wish), the Holy Father’s message is to forcibly take from some through the power of taxation, and give it to others. I am sure that those pure souls who vote in the taxes on the rest of us in order to redistribute our wealth will feel quite holy in their charity…

 

[Melvin]

I think he’s concerned by the global economic system that essentially turns the second and third world into poorly paid producers of goods for first world consumers. Americans, rich and poor, have insatiable appetites for more and more, much to the detriment of our spiritual lives.

Just visit Walmart, a store frequented by lower income Americans. It’s shelves are filled with goods produced abroad.

You know, the problem I have with this, is that it seems that there is a good portion of the world that has seen economic development due to the exporting of American technology and production, and the evil of American consumerism. My guess is that there are a lot of people in the developing world that might not be eating today were it not for same.

And, as that trend continues, and while the first world is apparently being chastised by the Pope, we are seeing the ramifications in the United States…a marked decrease in the middle class, a loss of purchasing power, the overall decline of the economy…and the balance of power, economically as well as militarily, is shifting to Asia…

Somehow, I wonder whether what the Church would really like to see is the old days of Europe, where millions lived in poverty under absolute rulers, while royalty lived in luxury and had to be bowed to…but hey, every once in a while, some king or queen would give up their inheritance and their lands, in order to minister to the poor…and thus be proclaimed a saint…

 

[m134e5]

The Meme certainly has a lot of truth to it. Catholic’s in America are often more concerned about politics and defending american nationalism rather than defending God’s Church and the Poor. For years many in the Church have rightly protested when some Catholic’s ignoring Church teaching on Abortion or Same Sex “Marriage”. But now, when the Pope has said something that challenges them, they are the first to dissent from his teachings.

The corporal works of mercy are part of Catholic doctrine, so there’s nothing wrong with them- but it’s only natural to be at least a bit cautious when advocacy for the poor has so frequently been associated with irreverent liturgies and heretical theology. I’d really rather not see the Church get thrown back to theological and liturgical craziness of the 1970’s, and I’m not alone. Many people who were the strongest advocates of that craziness were particularly known for their outspoken “concern” for “the poor.”

We need to stick to reading and studying what the pope actually says, rather than what the media says he’s saying. He seems to be particularly easy for the media to twist to their liking. This is difficult, because it takes time to find what he actually said- he almost never speaks in English, and he tends to make lots of spontaneous comments. Pope Francis’ love for the poor is authentic, and his orthodoxy is apparent to those who study what he writes and says deeper than the mainstream media cares to go.

 

[SirStephen]

The poverty in parts of Latin America, Africa, and some places in Asia are unimaginable to most people in the United States. The pope, looking at the Church from a global perspective, probably isn’t even considering what people in the US think of as poverty.

I think this is spot on. I would like to point out that this is even a theme popping up among the Tea-Party crowd as they see these global systems taking jobs away from Americans, etc. This is NOT to get political or to try to make it seem conservative, just to point out that there are “Wall Street” conservatives and “Main Street” conservatives and the ones on Main Street are not as hostile to what the Pope said as some might think.

And this is where it is also important to point out that I don’t think Pope Francis was speaking about “trickle down” from the perspective of the US but rather in its predatory form in the third world where capitalism is virtually indistinguishable from the kleptocracies that take in the revenue and viciously exploit the people in the process – just as events are evolving in this country as well.

SCC

 

[Timothysis]

Ultimately, I think the reason so many do not like this letter is because it challenges them to get out of their comfort zone and go to the unfortunate. Frankly, I just don’t think people want to do that, so they are turning on the Holy Father.

Or is it that the people who get up and go to work everyday, put their children in private schools so they can get a good education, who pay their property taxes and income taxes, give to charities and who contribute to the building fund of the local Catholic parish are tired of being accused of somehow “getting over” on the poor?

 

[Crossbones]

So you believe ones opinion on the progressiveness of the US FEDERALINVOME tax defines one Catholicism.Intetesting

No, I was letting you know what the poster was referring to when he said ‘right-leaning’ Catholic since you seemed confused. He was referring to the economic conservative that will say the pope has no business talking on economic matters and the type that repeats that 47% don’t pay federal income taxes the first time an economic topic comes up.

The type that turns Catholics who believe the government have a role in supporting poor people into voting for the pro-abortion Democrats, instead of the pro-life Republicans.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

And this is where it is also important to point out that I don’t think Pope Francis was speaking about “trickle down” from the perspective of the US but rather in its predatory form in the third world where capitalism is virtually indistinguishable from the kleptocracies that take in the revenue and viciously exploit the people in the process – just as events are evolving in this country as well.

I couldn’t agree more! Not everything is about the USA. There’s a whole world out there!

In Latin America, where the Holy Father is from, capitalism does not really exist in USA style. There are few to no limits on monopolies and even basic labor protections are rejected as “anti-business.” There exists little to no social safety net, if you are unable to work you starve. Giant monopolies, corruption, no labor protection, etc. are all justified in the name of capitalism and “freedom”, and anyone who disagrees must be a communist! Of course, its just as obscene in reverse in socialist countries like Venezuela, but that’s not what the Holy Father is addressing.

Here in the USA, imho, the Holy Father’s words are food for thought rather than a direct challenge. Very few American conservatives see their economic policies are the solution to social ills but we should always keep in the forefront of our minds how our economic policies affect the poor both here and abroad…

 

[Ridgerunner]

I greatly doubt that the Pope cares about whose feelings are hurt when he speaks the truth. Neither did Jesus in the Gospels. I do agree that both would tend to avoid, where possible, terminology that is routinely used to insult people. It is not always possible to avoid such terminology. For example, speaking from a global perspective (which is what the Pope generally does), the words “communist” and “leftist” are often used as insults with widely varying meanings, but it also used in the opposite sense by millions of people. Would he avoid using these term because of their propensity to offend or confuse? I think not.

The only salient point in this discussion I think is, what the Pope was actually describing or referring to.

I think the Pope would say “communist” when he really means “communist”. I doubt he would use it to describe, for example, Barack Obama, though some do.

It would be interesting to know what he actually said in the language in which he said it, and see how someone conversant in both English and that language would render it.

In the U.S. the term “trickle down” was never anything but a misrepresentation of the Reagan/Laffer economic approach by Reagan’s political enemies. It was coined here for that purpose alone. Before concluding that Pope Francis shares that view and intent, I would like to see what those skilled in language make of it, particularly because if we apply the American usage it doesn’t fit with the rest of what he said.

The remainder of what Pope Francis said is on all fours with the Social Encyclicals, none of which condemned the accumulation of wealth. Rather, they encouraged it as an insulator of individuals and famlies against the consumerism and the wage slavery it engenders, as well as government dependency. If ordinary people can accumulate wealth, then there’s no harm in some few having great wealth.

Which is not to say there is nothing really wrong with the increasing disparity between those at the top and the rest of us. But that’s a symptom. It’s not the disease. Interestingly, the income distribution is most even at full employment, and the gap grows with high unemployment. That has been demonstrably true since 1929 when the government first started keeping records on it. But even the terrible labor participation rate we now have is just a symptom. The “disease” is the other side of the Pope’s coin, a government which, by its policies, simultaneously discourages employment and increases government dependency.

Interestingly too, it’s a disease that feeds on itself. As between capital and labor, the full cost of government transfer payments come from labor’s share of national income, not from that of capital. That has also been true ever since the government first started keeping records. There are reasons for that.

 

[ProVobis]

Yes, Jesus’ main concern is the Federal Reserve System.He’s really worried about it. He spends a lot of time listening to conservative talk radio in heaven. He loves Rush and considers himself a dittohead!

Right. And the rest of the country is more concerned about what kind of car Jesus would drive.

 

[TRH1292]

The corporal works of mercy are part of Catholic doctrine, so there’s nothing wrong with them- but it’s only natural to be at least a bit cautious when advocacy for the poor has so frequently been associated with irreverent liturgies and heretical theology. I’d really rather not see the Church get thrown back to theological and liturgical craziness of the 1970’s, and I’m not alone. Many people who were the strongest advocates of that craziness were particularly known for their outspoken “concern” for “the poor.”

We need to stick to reading and studying what the pope actually says, rather than what the media says he’s saying. He seems to be particularly easy for the media to twist to their liking. This is difficult, because it takes time to find what he actually said- he almost never speaks in English, and he tends to make lots of spontaneous comments. Pope Francis’ love for the poor is authentic, and his orthodoxy is apparent to those who study what he writes and says deeper than the mainstream media cares to go.

It’s not difficult to find at all. The document in question can be read right here on the Vatican website in English: vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html#PREPARING_TO_PREACH

This document is easy to read, and it’s extremely obvious what he is saying.
We are not in the 1970’s, we are in 2013, Pope Francis is our Holy Father, this is his document, and it’s pretty clear where concern for the poor ranks on his priority list for the Church. It’s also pretty obvious where it ranked on the priority list of Jesus, as the Pope shows in the document.

 

[estesbob]

No, I was letting you know what the poster was referring to when he said ‘right-leaning’ Catholic since you seemed confused. He was referring to the economic conservative that will say the pope has no business talking on economic matters and the type that repeats that 47% don’t pay federal income taxes the first time an economic topic comes up.

The type that turns Catholics who believe the government have a role in supporting poor people into voting for the pro-abortion Democrats, instead of the pro-life Republicans.

You seem to view our faith through the prism of politics Shouldn’t it be the other way around.?

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Crossbones]

You seem to view our faith through the prism of politics Shouldn’t it be the other way around.?

Happy Thanksgiving!

I was answering what I believed to be a sincere question on your part when you ask what a ‘right-leaning’ Catholic was. I don’t really see how answering a sincere question leads you to the question you are asking. Can you explain your logic here?

Happy Thanksgiving to you too!