"Pope Francis Digs at Vatican's Narcissistic Nature.."

[JReducation]

I LOVE POPE FRANCIS! Someone needed to say this…and the fact that it came from the Pope himself sends a strong message.

A wonderful example of what he’s talking about was clearly visible this week. At the consistory, when Pope Francis announced the upcoming canonizations, the cardinals wore choir robes, which is fine. The pope wore his white cassock and a red stole. But it was not the brocaded one that we usually see. It was one of the simple ones that you see at a parish on any feast of a martyr or Pentecost.

In any case, there were people on the Internet who were writing pages about his manner of dress for this event and completely failed to discuss the significance of it all. They failed to mention that the pope spoke in the first person, invoking the authority given by Christ to Peter and Paul. They failed to mention that the reason that pope was not in choir clothes is probably because he’s a Jesuit. Religious popes have rarely worn choir clothes. They have always worn their habits. The Jesuits don’t have a habit. The next best thing is a simple cassock with a simple stole. They failed to mention that the pope exercised his authority as successor of Peter to wave the second miracle for Bl. John XXIII. They failed to mention that no human being on earth has this kind of power, to say with such confidence that someone is in heaven and deserves to be added to the canon of saints.

THEY FOCUSED ON A CASSOCK AND STOLE!!! :banghead:

But we don’t have narcissism in the Church. :nope:

This is narcissism. This is the leprosy of the papacy that Pope Francis spoke about. This constant watch for temporal to the point that the transcendent is forgotten.

 

[Vouthon]

There is such a thing as a malformed conscience.

Indeed but its not for me to judge, only God. I presume, on the basis of hope, that most people I encounter have at least made attempts to properly form their conscience according to the degree of truth available and/or known to them.

 

[M-Dent]

In any case, there were people on the Internet who were writing pages about his manner of dress for this event and completely failed to discuss the significance of it all. They failed to mention that the pope spoke in the first person, invoking the authority given by Christ to Peter and Paul. They failed to mention that the reason that pope was not in choir clothes is probably because he’s a Jesuit. Religious popes have rarely worn choir clothes. They have always worn their habits. The Jesuits don’t have a habit. The next best thing is a simple cassock with a simple stole. They failed to mention that the pope exercised his authority as successor of Peter to wave the second miracle for Bl. John XXIII. They failed to mention that no human being on earth has this kind of power, to say with such confidence that someone is in heaven and deserves to be added to the canon of saints.

THEY FOCUSED ON A CASSOCK AND STOLE!!! :banghead:

But we don’t have narcissism in the Church. :nope:

This is narcissism. This is the leprosy of the papacy that Pope Francis spoke about. This constant watch for temporal to the point that the transcendent is forgotten.

Thanks for the perspective.

What is immediately apparent regarding the harsh criticism is how (as the pope stated) many popes and church leaders had been narcissists - surrounding themselves with yes men (court). We can easily understand this as those who only have ears for those who stroke the ego - enablers. Those who exclusively look inwardly to a closed circle, or exclusively to themselves, for any and all answer to the many difficult questions we face day to day. Demonstrating an excessive self love of themselves.

Of course, one way to take this - an assurance the court of cardinals that has been created are going to present the pope with things he may not want to hear.

The pope also recently likened clergy with aims of careerism to a type of leprosy. Speaking to those clergy whose primary orientation is to seek self-fulfillment or public recognition. Thankfully, I haven’t met many of those clergy but I am sure they exist!

He does seem partial to deploying loaded terms?

 

[CradleJourney]

I don’t think that we’re learning from the pope, which is unfortunate. If we observe carefully, he is not concerned about translations and interpretations. He is concerned with the Church and with answering questions succinctly, thoughtfully, respectfully and in a provocative way that leaves the audience thinking.

This is not a naive man. He knows that there is going to be a problem with translations. Today, translations suffer more than they did 100 years ago. One hundred years ago, translations were done by linguists. Today, in order to beat the clock, translations are done by language software. The human element is absent in the translation, allowing for mistranslations. The pope knows this. But he does not let that deter him from preaching.

More often than not, I just read these things and say, “This is good spirituality. I need to work on this myself.”

Just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your well written posts and insights. You are able to put into words what I feel in my “heart” about Pope Francis and all he is saying and doing. Thank you and thanks be to God for our pope.

 

[CradleJourney]

OK, the Holy Spirit is seriously at work here. I need to get back to church!

Speaking as one who was away and who was called back … be warned very big grin … once the Holy Spirit starts working on you, you don’t “have a prayer” of standing against it

God bless you on your journey!

 

[AdvanceAlways]

It’s a sad day where vocal dissenters are in love with the Pope. It’s a sad day when the secular world is in love with the Pope. Stop blaming mistranslations, folks. It is possible that the Holy Father is giving just straight up off the cuff interviews, riddled with concepts that your average Catholic isn’t going to understand, and that border on dangerous theological grounds. Since Francis has become Pope, I see more and more dissenters saying they’re coming back to the Church, well if they had been moved by Catholic teaching they never would have dissented and wouldn’t have needed apparent Papal license to return. Giving the Holy Father all the respect he is due as Pope, some of you must understand that some of us do not like Francis at all.

 

[TMC]

It’s a sad day where vocal dissenters are in love with the Pope. It’s a sad day when the secular world is in love with the Pope. Stop blaming mistranslations, folks. It is possible that the Holy Father is giving just straight up off the cuff interviews, riddled with concepts that your average Catholic isn’t going to understand, and that border on dangerous theological grounds. Since Francis has become Pope, I see more and more dissenters saying they’re coming back to the Church, well if they had been moved by Catholic teaching they never would have dissented and wouldn’t have needed apparent Papal license to return. Giving the Holy Father all the respect he is due as Pope, some of you must understand that some of us do not like Francis at all.

Its bad that fallen away Catholics are returning? Its bad that the secular world is listening to the Pope and maybe even learning from him? You dislike the Pope for spreading the Gospel and bringing back the lost sheep? You’re right, I don’t understand why you don’t like these things.

 

[manualman]

I see some significant synergy here with one of the controversial quotes of Benedict 16. Remember the hoopla about the condom-using male prostitute? The pope (B16) pointed out that such an event might signal a recognition in the person that sin does damage and subsequently seeks a means to prevent that damage. He described that process as a FIRST step towards a moral outcome.

I see that in a similar light to this interview. Francis is pointing out that when people follow their conscience (not defined as feelings, but what they genuinely believe to be morally good), that their hearts at that point orient towards God and they become more receptive to God’s offers of Grace in their lives. This can be true even of an imperfectly developed conscience!

Maybe this is what Francis is trying to do. It seems that he’s wanting to move the church in a direction of meeting people where they are, showing them the reality of Grace and Salvation where they are at right now in their lives. That’s where people are changed and choose Christ instead of self. THEN they will learn to open their hearts and minds to correction by the Holy Spirit manifested in Tradition and Scripture. Isn’t that how we ALL came to Christ? Did any of you guys get convinced by intellectual proofs of the correctness of catholic moral theology? Or was it the encounter with Christ?

 

[gracepoole]

It’s a sad day where vocal dissenters are in love with the Pope. It’s a sad day when the secular world is in love with the Pope. Stop blaming mistranslations, folks. It is possible that the Holy Father is giving just straight up off the cuff interviews, riddled with concepts that your average Catholic isn’t going to understand, and that border on dangerous theological grounds. Since Francis has become Pope, I see more and more dissenters saying they’re coming back to the Church, well if they had been moved by Catholic teaching they never would have dissented and wouldn’t have needed apparent Papal license to return. Giving the Holy Father all the respect he is due as Pope, some of you must understand that some of us do not like Francis at all.

I think you need to reread the story of Jonah. When the people of Nineveh repented and God forgave them, it was Jonah who thought a terrible mistake had occurred – and he was sadly and seriously mistaken. God isn’t just for those who’ve been faithful all along. He welcomes back the prodigal son. You don’t have to like Pope Francis – but so far, the reasons you’ve provided for not liking him are frightening.

 

[McCall1981]

It’s a sad day where vocal dissenters are in love with the Pope. It’s a sad day when the secular world is in love with the Pope. Stop blaming mistranslations, folks. It is possible that the Holy Father is giving just straight up off the cuff interviews, riddled with concepts that your average Catholic isn’t going to understand, and that border on dangerous theological grounds. Since Francis has become Pope, I see more and more dissenters saying they’re coming back to the Church, well if they had been moved by Catholic teaching they never would have dissented and wouldn’t have needed apparent Papal license to return. Giving the Holy Father all the respect he is due as Pope, some of you must understand that some of us do not like Francis at all.

Well said.

 

[triumphguy]

It’s a sad day where vocal dissenters are in love with the Pope. It’s a sad day when the secular world is in love with the Pope. Stop blaming mistranslations, folks. It is possible that the Holy Father is giving just straight up off the cuff interviews, riddled with concepts that your average Catholic isn’t going to understand, and that border on dangerous theological grounds. Since Francis has become Pope, I see more and more dissenters saying they’re coming back to the Church, well if they had been moved by Catholic teaching they never would have dissented and wouldn’t have needed apparent Papal license to return. Giving the Holy Father all the respect he is due as Pope, some of you must understand that some of us do not like Francis at all.

How do you get sick people to hospital? By lecturing them on the dangers of smoking, over eating and alcohol?

You have to make the hospital accessible, welcoming, non-threatening, and helpful.

When you have treated their sickness then you can tell them how to get better and avoid getting sick again.

 

[Jaberwocky]

I think you need to reread the story of Jonah. When the people of Nineveh repented and God forgave them, it was Jonah who thought a terrible mistake had occurred – and he was sadly and seriously mistaken. God isn’t just for those who’ve been faithful all along. He welcomes back the prodigal son. You don’t have to like Pope Francis – but so far, the reasons you’ve provided for not liking him are frightening.

Nineveh repented because they knew that what they had committed were sins. The secular world is in love with Pope Francis because they think he is changing the moral laws of the Church because it is incompatible with God’s mercy.

Those are two different things.

The Prodigal son was also on the way home. As Bl. John Paul II indicated, this implies that the person had already repented. The father welcomed him because the son had repented.

Today the impression is that repentance is not necessary and we accept you for who you are. These were the words of a fellow Buddhist friend of mind regarding Pope Francis.

 

[Jaberwocky]

How do you get sick people to hospital? By lecturing them on the dangers of smoking, over eating and alcohol?

You have to make the hospital accessible, welcoming, non-threatening, and helpful.

When you have treated their sickness then you can tell them how to get better and avoid getting sick again.

Yes, unless you tell them that they have a disease, most people won’t go to the Hospital till it is too late to treat them. Are you aware of the multitudes of programs made to raise awareness? Haven’t you seen the breast cancer ads?

Another thing about this hospital bed analogy, are you aware that if a person were brought to hospital for an injury, they will indeed be asked if they suffer from other conditions like Diabetes, high blood pressure etc?

If the person is operated and treated only for the injury and they were suffering from these other conditions, that could lead to their death or die during the treatment itself (high blood pressure).

 

[Ridgerunner]

It’s a sad day where vocal dissenters are in love with the Pope. It’s a sad day when the secular world is in love with the Pope. Stop blaming mistranslations, folks. It is possible that the Holy Father is giving just straight up off the cuff interviews, riddled with concepts that your average Catholic isn’t going to understand, and that border on dangerous theological grounds. Since Francis has become Pope, I see more and more dissenters saying they’re coming back to the Church, well if they had been moved by Catholic teaching they never would have dissented and wouldn’t have needed apparent Papal license to return. Giving the Holy Father all the respect he is due as Pope, some of you must understand that some of us do not like Francis at all.

Well, I understand you don’t like him. So far, I do, and I might even be more ultramontane than you are.

Dissenters who are considering coming back to the Church are still going to face the doctrines of the Church. Sometimes people feel themselves “stuck” in an “out of the Church” situation because they don’t understand that they could, with penitence, return.

Possibly my view is colored by an experience I had. I was teaching CCD some time ago, and one high schooler obviously had a bad attitude and, at a point, criticized the Church’s teaching on marriage, and strongly so. Well, his parents had divorced, and his father had remarried, and he really resented that his father was de facto excommunicated. Interesting that his father made him go to CCD when he clearly didn’t want to.

I found myself asking the kid whether his father was seeking an annulment and he said he was. I found myself then saying that such things as those proceedings are a “mercy”, just as confession is. It’s not the purpose to impose a hardship, but to “let people off the hook” when life, it’s troubles and temptations would otherwise cause us to be isolated from the Church, and adrift.

The kid took it fairly well and calmed down. Not long after, his father’s annulment came through, and the kid never missed a class or disrupted it again.

At this point, I am taking Pope Francis’ sayings that way.

 

[SaintAugustine]

Yes, unless you tell them that they have a disease, most people won’t go to the Hospital till it is too late to treat them. Are you aware of the multitudes of programs made to raise awareness? Haven’t you seen the breast cancer ads?

Another thing about this hospital bed analogy, are you aware that if a person were brought to hospital for an injury, they will indeed be asked if they suffer from other conditions like Diabetes, high blood pressure etc?

If the person is operated and treated only for the injury and they were suffering from these other conditions, that could lead to their death or die during the treatment itself (high blood pressure).

I agree. Triumphguy’s analogy was really weak. Maybe they don’t have the same anti-smoking ads (where someone is smoking out of the hole in their trachea and warning people about the dangers of smoking), anti-drinking ads, etc. I know they have breast cancer ads…this is my favorite.

youtube.com/watch?v=G24SLr__Vno

 

[Abba]

I too LOVE Pope Francis! But there are quite a few so called Catholics that think he is being influenced by Satan.

God bless Pope Francis!

Ha, ha! Francis arrived meek and humble but with great spiritual strength. It is Satan and his demons that better start packing before Francis grabs them all by their horns and drags them out!

Thank you Lord Jesus for Francis!

 

[triumphguy]

Yes, unless you tell them that they have a disease, most people won’t go to the Hospital till it is too late to treat them. Are you aware of the multitudes of programs made to raise awareness? Haven’t you seen the breast cancer ads?

Another thing about this hospital bed analogy, are you aware that if a person were brought to hospital for an injury, they will indeed be asked if they suffer from other conditions like Diabetes, high blood pressure etc?

If the person is operated and treated only for the injury and they were suffering from these other conditions, that could lead to their death or die during the treatment itself (high blood pressure).

People go to hospital because they are IN PAIN, not because someone tells them they have a disease.

Pope Francis is recognizing and acknowledging the pain that’s in the world, and he’s calling us to respond in love.

Love doesn’t deny truth, but without love many will never be able to hear the truth because of their pain…

 

[triumphguy]

I agree. Triumphguy’s analogy was really weak. Maybe they don’t have the same anti-smoking ads (where someone is smoking out of the hole in their trachea and warning people about the dangers of smoking), anti-drinking ads, etc. I know they have breast cancer ads…this is my favorite.

youtube.com/watch?v=G24SLr__Vno

No - I think it’s really strong. In fact it is Pope Francis’ own analogy.

**The field hospital is open: reflections on Pope Francis’ interview by Father Robert Barron
**catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=2692

One of Pope Francis’s gifts as a communicator is a peculiar feel for the memorable image: “Shepherds should smell like their sheep;” and seminarians and priests ought to be willing to “make a mess” come readily to mind. The most striking analogy in the interview is this: “I see the church as a field hospital after battle.” No doctor doing triage on a battlefield is going to be fussing about his patients’ cholesterol or blood sugar levels. He is going to be treating major wounds and trying desperately to stop the bleeding.

What we find today, the Pope is implying, are millions of people who are, in the spiritual sense, gravely wounded. They are alienated from God, stuck in the no-man’s land of moral relativism, adrift with no sense of direction, and tempted by every form of errant desire. They require, therefore, not the fine points of moral doctrine, but basic healing. Perhaps this explains why the Church’s altogether valid teachings on ethics are so often met with incomprehension or hostility: far more elemental instruction is required.

 

[Jaberwocky]

People go to hospital because they are IN PAIN, not because someone tells them they have a disease.

By the time they go to the Hospital when they have pain, they are most likely beyond help. That is why we have advanced screening and programs to raise awareness.

Pope Francis is recognizing and acknowledging the pain that’s in the world, and he’s calling us to respond in love.

Love doesn’t deny truth, but without love many will never be able to hear the truth because of their pain…

Pain is caused due to lack of truth. To love is to tell the truth. You are once again pitting Truth against Love when one cannot truly love without telling the other person the complete truth.

If a person was going to die from a disease, is it correct to

1. tell them everything is ok and to keep doing the best they can?
   OR
2. give them the medicine of truth to save them from that disease?

 

[SaintAugustine]

No - I think it’s really strong. In fact it is Pope Francis’ own analogy.

**The field hospital is open: reflections on Pope Francis’ interview by Father Robert Barron
**catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=2692

Right. But, that is how you handle them once they come to the hospital. Recognizing the fact that the medical industry does a lot of advertising warning about illnesses and lifestyle dangers, your and the Pope’s analogy would have to agree that warning people about sin and the dangers of sinful lifestyles is also called for.

Now, once they come to the hospital, you treat them with love and help them heal.

The only reason your use of the analogy failed is that you prefer to ignore all of the warnings about dangers that absolutely do happen on a regular basis…