"Pope Francis Digs at Vatican's Narcissistic Nature.."

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Gricken said:
Some of you guys really underestimate the Pope. He isn’t stupid. He gives these interviews because he feels he has too. He knows very well that people are going to twist his words, misquote him, and maybe even abuse them, but he can’t let that stop him. It happened to Pope Benedict, and it happened to Pope John Paul II. The difference is that Pope Francis decided that the right way to deal with this is to ignore it. He has a message that he wants people to hear, and he’s going to speak it. A lot of the time, I would bet that the people here who are “distressed” with what Pope Francis is saying are the exact people he is talking to. It isn’t just the media and liberal Catholics who doesn’t get him, a lot of the hardline conservative Catholics don’t get him either! As my father is fond of saying “Let Pope Francis be Pope Francis” He isn’t a “liberal” pope, or a “conservative” pope. He’s a Catholic Pope.
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I don’t understand. If the Pope says things that dishearten us in our faith, make it harder for us to have faith in him, why shouldn’t we say so?

God Bless
 
bilop said:
I don’t understand. If the Pope says things that dishearten us in our faith, make it harder for us to have faith in him, why shouldn’t we say so?

God Bless
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I someone says to me 2+2 = 4 and I feel bad the problem is mine not the person who said it.
  1. I should presume that the Pope is speaking as the Vicar of Christ.
  2. If this causes me any emotion whatsoever (even glee and happiness) I should examine my own motives for my feelings. My feelings belong to me, not the Pope. The Pope is not making anyone “feel” a certain way about their faith.
 
Jaberwocky said:
Hmm, you might have a point about my tendency to just “you are incorrect”. I will watch out for it and try to minimize it in the future. Thanks!

On the issue of interviews, I see the matters a bit differently. Men and women today are not evil people. They are those who have fooled themselves in to believing some form of a lie (with ample help of the devil of-course).

The role of the Church should be to shed light to these men and women by presenting the truth. That presentation is weakened by these interviews because its very difficult for the average person to grasp the truths from it. They are more likely to hear it and continue with their lie as being affirmed even by the Pope. That is a missed opportunity as well as a strengthening of their beliefs.

Therefore I see the “loophole seeking crowd” as the ones that were lost due to the ambiguity which otherwise could have been challenged by explaining the truth in detail. Most of the loophole seeking crowd know the Church teaching but they do not know a good explanation for it. You would be surprised at the amount of young men and women I meet who go “Hmm, when you put it that way it does make sense” after hearing the basis for Church teaching.

Instead, the last two interviews made the Church look like an organization that was out of touch with reality that is condemned by the Pope himself. So what could you expect from the “loophole seeking crowd” from now on who already were repeating this mantra?
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I don’t worry too much about the loophole crowd. They’re going to look for one regardless. I wait for them to come to us.

As far as the Church being out of touch, there is some truth to this. I don’t think that it’s being understood as the pope understands it, but it does not mean that he’s wrong either. He’s referring to the institution itself, its organization, its way of conducting business, and its way of relating to the world. He’s not speaking about the faith of the Church.

The problem here is one of language. People don’t always separate terms such as church and faith or even church and Church. A lot more work has to be done to help people sort through it all so that they can see what has to be fixed and what is not broken and need not be touched. This is going to take time. However, it has to begin somewhere.

If the college of cardinals asked for a review, because it feels that the church is not in touch with their work in the trenches, then it is legitimate for the pope to say that the church is out of touch with its people and its pastors. But he’s referring to the structure and systems, not to the faith.

I have always felt that we don’t need to worry as much as we do about these things. The vocation of every man and woman is to deal with what’s in front of him and if we do that well, we will be great saints. We have to be careful not to be so concerned that we overwhelm ourselves into complete paralysis.

Some reactions by many Catholics frighten me, because it sounds as if they are on that edge. It’s important that they back away from all of this and go back to their daily walk and let someone else deal with it who will not be overwhelmed.
 
bilop said:
I don’t understand. If the Pope says things that dishearten us in our faith, make it harder for us to have faith in him, why shouldn’t we say so?

God Bless
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What I am saying is that he is challenging us. He’s got a different style from those who came before him. The Pope is the Pope because the Holy Spirit guided the Cardinals to his election. If listening to him is disheartening people, I would argue that the problem is not with the pope, but with the people listening.

I don’t mean to put myself on a pedestal here! Lord knows there are parts of the church teaching that sometimes make me feel a little disheartened (What parts exactly are between the Lord and Myself, suffice to say I bow to the wisdom of the Church in those parts regardless) But I would conclude this is because of my own failings, not the failings of the church or those who watch over it.
 
triumphguy said:
I someone says to me 2+2 = 4 and I feel bad the problem is mine not the person who said it.
  1. I should presume that the Pope is speaking as the Vicar of Christ.
  2. If this causes me any emotion whatsoever (even glee and happiness) I should examine my own motives for my feelings. My feelings belong to me, not the Pope. The Pope is not making anyone “feel” a certain way about their faith.
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Thank you! That is EXACTLY what I was getting that! 😃
 
triumphguy said:
Not a straw man - I probably expressed myself wrong.
I mean instead of condemning the sin invite the sinner.

People need to be drawn to conversion so that they may turn from sin and do good.

People do this best in relationships with healthy community.

The RCIA process is aimed at doing exactly this.

In our group we have people in irregular relationships. That will change. Not because i wish it, or preach about it, but because they will see what is the right thing t do, and will do what is needed to make their relationships “regular.”

OTOH hand they know this is coming, because they’ve already filled in the RCIA forms, but they haven;t had to jump yet.

And I think the hospital analogy is fine.

The church should be an emergency ward for sinners.
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See, this is where I think we disagree. Is the Church an “emergency ward?” Sure. But, it is also the regular clinic where you work on prevention and staying healthy. If you go to the regular clinic, and the doctor or practitioner doesn’t say “hey, you need to stop smoking because smoking leads to emphysema and lung cancer and you don’t want to be breathing out of your neck,” then they are doing a disservice to the patient. It is also the school, where the teachers let the students know about the dangers of smoking, drinking and poor nutrition. It is also our spiritual parents, giving us a smack on the back of the head every once in a while, to put us on the right path when we are being stupid. The Church is a lot of things, so don’t limit it to being an emergency ward.

We shouldn’t wait until someone comes to the emergency ward with serious, critical injuries to save them.
 
Jaberwocky said:
By the time they go to the Hospital when they have pain, they are most likely beyond help. That is why we have advanced screening and programs to raise awareness.
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Analogies have limits, always. One can make nitpicks about Jesus’ own parables, even! But surely you aren’t saying that those mired deeply in sin and suffering its inevitable consequences are “beyond help” and it’s useless to reach out to them?

Your quibbles about Francis’ analogy are focused on chronic problems (heart disease, cancer, etc). But the analogy was a BATTLEFIELD hospital. Our culture today jumps gleefully into all sorts of sin. Some cause very quick damage and trauma. Others build up over time. But in the spiritual realm, nobody still breathing is “beyond help.”

The church isn’t ever going to compromise her teaching. But Jesus didn’t LEAD with condemnation of sin. In encounters with ordinary people, he lead by making personal connections, no? The only time I can recall that he lead with rebukes is in dealing with people comfortably certain of their own righteous status with God. It looks to me like Francis is just following that example.

One can argue that certain dissenter groups are smugly certain that their sins are actually righteousness in God’s eyes. But it’s equally possible that this is a façade they put up to try to convince themselves more than us. Perhaps we should worry less about them as a threat and focus more on making sure they know that Christ loves them and will forgive and heal them if they let him. In any case, you can’t deny that Francis is making us THINK!
 
I understand a lot of the well meaning people here, but let us not decieve ourselves. The messages Pope Francis has been giving recently sound very similar to those of mega-churches or the emergent churches. Very little on sin, very little on Christ, the Incarnation, Heaven, Hell, etc. Deep important issues.

Of course we need to teach with love, but that cannot come at compromising Catholic values. Again, I know many of you will say, that he’s not changing or compromising anything. But the concern that many have is legitimate by those who have it. When Catholics start talking more like the world, and less like Christ, that is troublesome.

Remember Christ’s words, “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.”

And the people concerned by Francis’ words do not care about the less pomp and circumstance in the Vatican. Many of us, welcome that. We are concerned that his statements are showing us a dangerous pattern.
 
Gricken said:
What I am saying is that he is challenging us. He’s got a different style from those who came before him. The Pope is the Pope because the Holy Spirit guided the Cardinals to his election. If listening to him is disheartening people, I would argue that the problem is not with the pope, but with the people listening.

I don’t mean to put myself on a pedestal here! Lord knows there are parts of the church teaching that sometimes make me feel a little disheartened (What parts exactly are between the Lord and Myself, suffice to say I bow to the wisdom of the Church in those parts regardless) But I would conclude this is because of my own failings, not the failings of the church or those who watch over it.
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Well said. Those that are getting uncomfortable need to listen to Bro. very carefully and to research the Jesuits. Just because the message sounds different it is still very much Catholic. I also agree with your point that Pope Francis is very intelligent and worldly and knows exactly what he is doing. That is probably why he was chosen bt men who know much more than we do about what the Church needs today.
 
manualman said:
Analogies have limits, always. One can make nitpicks about Jesus’ own parables, even! But surely you aren’t saying that those mired deeply in sin and suffering its inevitable consequences are “beyond help” and it’s useless to reach out to them?

Your quibbles about Francis’ analogy are focused on chronic problems (heart disease, cancer, etc). But the analogy was a BATTLEFIELD hospital. Our culture today jumps gleefully into all sorts of sin. Some cause very quick damage and trauma. Others build up over time. But in the spiritual realm, nobody still breathing is “beyond help.”

The church isn’t ever going to compromise her teaching. But Jesus didn’t LEAD with condemnation of sin. In encounters with ordinary people, he lead by making personal connections, no? The only time I can recall that he lead with rebukes is in dealing with people comfortably certain of their own righteous status with God. It looks to me like Francis is just following that example.

One can argue that certain dissenter groups are smugly certain that their sins are actually righteousness in God’s eyes. But it’s equally possible that this is a façade they put up to try to convince themselves more than us. Perhaps we should worry less about them as a threat and focus more on making sure they know that Christ loves them and will forgive and heal them if they let him. In any case, you can’t deny that Francis is making us THINK!
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Again, battlefield hospitals do not ask about blood pressure and such because soldiers with such conditions are not allowed to fight.

One cannot treat a person’s battlefield injuries without taking in to account the whole list of diseases they are suffering from. That is a fact. To do otherwise could lead to the potential death of the person on the operating table due to negligence.

There is also an ample amount of message of love. Yet we have more and more people who couldn’t care less until the Church changes her moral stance in North America. We have Africa where there is less of this emotional love business. It has a thriving Church.

You tell me what we are suppossed to infer from that.
 
JReducation said:
I have always felt that we don’t need to worry as much as we do about these things. The vocation of every man and woman is to deal with what’s in front of him and if we do that well, we will be great saints. We have to be careful not to be so concerned that we overwhelm ourselves into complete paralysis.

Some reactions by many Catholics frighten me, because it sounds as if they are on that edge. It’s important that they back away from all of this and go back to their daily walk and let someone else deal with it who will not be overwhelmed.
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I think this is certainly very good advice.

Common sense/Prudence should also tell us that we also have a Pope who is still relatively new to his incredibly immense and difficult responsibility. All the sensational reporting seems just to be happening all too often and to be coming out (in terms of the interpretation or judgement given to it) far too fast. The very speed of it should cause us to heir on the side of caution and give time for all the details to come out. Just breathe and wait and have Faith that God is the Head of His Church: what ever will ultimately happen in regards to His beloved Spouse will always be in accordance with His will.
 
platofan1983 said:
Of course we need to teach with love, but that cannot come at compromising Catholic values. Again, I know many of you will say, that he’s not changing or compromising anything. But the concern that many have is legitimate by those who have it. When Catholics start talking more like the world, and less like Christ, that is troublesome.
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How about we all go home tonight, read the gospel of Matthew and come back tomorrow and discuss when and where Jesus used words of welcome and invitation and when/where he used words of rebuke. Who received each sort of message? What came before and after that message?

My assertion is that you’ll find that Jesus did NOT use message of rebuke or condemnation for those mired in the common human vices until AFTER he made a personal connection with that person first. The only exceptions I can recall (I’m going to reread too) are for those who believed that their religious practices already placed them above reproach. They got called “broods of vipers.” Yikes.

Perhaps the logic of Francis goes like this (I’ll speak as him). I see three sorts of people out there:
  1. The already converted. They’re far from perfect, but they already know and strive to conform their hearts to Christs in Grace. JPII and B16 gave them plenty to chew on for a while!
  2. The obstinate sinners who refuse to even admit that they need forgiveness and healing. Pretty much nothing I can say or do will dent them. They need to encounter Christ in the form of believers in their own lives. I have to leave them to the troops.
  3. The broken and hurting sinners who know something is wrong and just don’t know where to turn. I’ve worked with these my whole priesthood. I can help here. I’ll focus my energy in this direction. They need to know FIRST that Jesus still loves them. I will preach that message.
 
McCall1981 said:
For the record, the accuracy of this interview is being called into question by Andrea Tornielli. Fr. Lombardi has commented on it too:

wdtprs.com/blog/2013/10/tornielli-calls-into-question-accuracy-of-pope-francis-interview-fr-z-asks-a-serious-question/
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It seems to me that Fr. Lombardi said the opposite - he did not pledge that it was a word for word transcript (how could he, he wasn’t there) but he did say that it was “faithful” to the interview. And the Vatican has posted it on the official Vatican website, which suggests the Vatican believes its accurate.
 
TMC said:
It seems to me that Fr. Lombardi said the opposite - he did not pledge that it was a word for word transcript (how could he, he wasn’t there) but he did say that it was “faithful” to the interview. And the Vatican has posted it on the official Vatican website, which suggests the Vatican believes its accurate.
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I think admitting that it’s not a word for word transcript is a pretty big deal considering this is the Pope we’re talking about.
 
manualman said:
How about we all go home tonight, read the gospel of Matthew and come back tomorrow and discuss when and where Jesus used words of welcome and invitation and when/where he used words of rebuke. Who received each sort of message? What came before and after that message?

My assertion is that you’ll find that Jesus did NOT use message of rebuke or condemnation for those mired in the common human vices until AFTER he made a personal connection with that person first. The only exceptions I can recall (I’m going to reread too) are for those who believed that their religious practices already placed them above reproach. They got called “broods of vipers.” Yikes.
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Excellent suggestion and good points. I would also point out that Jesus spoke differently to the crowds than He did one on one. Note the sermon on the mount quote I provided. He was very blunt and didn’t sugarcoat His teaching on the Law and sin. One on one, He was loving and merciful. Your audience and venue matter.

I don’t see any problem whatsoever with our priests and bishops acting as Christ did in their sermons and public statements, and laypeople should also speak openly and freely about Church teaching. That said, we need to share ALL of the Gospel, as Pope Francis has said. We can’t just focus on the Law and sin. And, when we are speaking with our individual, fellow sinners, we should do it with tenderness and mercy, as Jesus did.
 
JReducation said:
I don’t worry too much about the loophole crowd. They’re going to look for one regardless. I wait for them to come to us.
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But were we not told to go out to the world and spread the good news? How can we expect them to want to change if we do not provide them with reasons to change?

When we pray, we do so that God will open their minds and hearts to receive the good news that God gives them through us. We cannot just expect miraculous private revelations of the magnitude of St. Paul’s experience that God only grants to few and is not something we are to desire for ourselves or others.

Therefore I must respectfully state that what you said maybe contrary to Church teaching.
JReducation said:
As far as the Church being out of touch, there is some truth to this. I don’t think that it’s being understood as the pope understands it, but it does not mean that he’s wrong either. He’s referring to the institution itself, its organization, its way of conducting business, and its way of relating to the world. He’s not speaking about the faith of the Church.

The problem here is one of language. People don’t always separate terms such as church and faith or even church and Church. A lot more work has to be done to help people sort through it all so that they can see what has to be fixed and what is not broken and need not be touched. This is going to take time. However, it has to begin somewhere.

If the college of cardinals asked for a review, because it feels that the church is not in touch with their work in the trenches, then it is legitimate for the pope to say that the church is out of touch with its people and its pastors. But he’s referring to the structure and systems, not to the faith.
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You and others who are well catechized and part of a religious order will know that. But the majority, which is the average Catholic will not understand that and cannot even be expected to grasp that. They see the Pope saying the same thing they have been telling the Church all these years. They see a Pope who is saying the Church is narcissistic, power hungry, full of emphasis on doctrine and dogma that overshadows the love and mercy of God, a Church that should just accept sinners (no mention of need for repentance in any of the interview) and other all sorts of things.

The problem is that their interpretation is much easier to extract from the words of the Pope than what you would like them to extract. It is also a problem that when the Pope could have explained how to reconcile moral teaching (or a specific moral teaching) with God’s love and mercy, it was missed on other things. It is more than easy to get the impression that the burning questions of today were left unanswered and the criticisms of the Church today were affirmed.
JReducation said:
I have always felt that we don’t need to worry as much as we do about these things. The vocation of every man and woman is to deal with what’s in front of him and if we do that well, we will be great saints. We have to be careful not to be so concerned that we overwhelm ourselves into complete paralysis.

Some reactions by many Catholics frighten me, because it sounds as if they are on that edge. It’s important that they back away from all of this and go back to their daily walk and let someone else deal with it who will not be overwhelmed.
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By no means do I want to concern myself with matters beyond me. But as someone who tries to take my faith seriously and spread the good news, the Pope’s words affect me in numerous ways. I can no longer speak freely about topics with a sense of sharing the truth because the interview is cited that even the Pope does not think there is an absolute truth. I am told that the Church I belong to the old Church before Pope Francis and that the Church has moved on.

I couldn’t care less about the humiliation I face as a result because it is good for me. What I do care about are the people who have become strengthened in their errors due to the interviews and consider themselves actual Catholics with nothing more to do on their part while engaging in the sins publicly.
 
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