Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

[Path_Finder]

The wikipedia article has one quote where someone would assert that the “Cuban 5” spies did not get a fair trial in Miami. Maybe that is a valid point.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five

But the point is, back to the original article, if the Cuban 5 or some members of that group were indeed rightfully convicted of “conspiracy to commit murder”, that murder did happen, a plane shot out of the sky

And the Pope influenced that deal for the transfer of the one American, that indeed is something that would rest on the consciences of those who made the trade. We don’t know the total story on how this happened however, if this means people who engaged in murder were traded, that is a reflection on all of those parties involved including the President and the Pope.

If this is unjust and without making a judgment, it is easy to see such a trade as being just that, unjust, trading people who killed 4 Americans for a single American who may or may not have been involved in some spying mission to Cuba.

There is no way to controvert these basic details, it’s just that we don’t know all.

Would this be reason to be upset at the Pope if he was involved?Exchanging prisoners in this manner and negotiating a deal that doesn’t seem to help the people of Cuba? Perhaps.

So, let’s make sure we have all of the data out there.

 

[Mulligan2]

Please – investigate Karl Rove’s goals during GW’s presidency regarding Catholic voters. Again, Google can easily demonstrate that there’s nothing scandalous in noting what is factual (it might be scandalous, though, to claim I’m scandalizing someone else without any evidence to that fact). If we vote, for example, for the GOP simply because the GOP party platform doesn’t support abortion, we should at least acknowledge to ourselves and God that there may be other non-negotiables (not just those identified by Republicans) which the GOP also violates. No party is Catholic and no party meets the moral standards of the Church. That’s the simple conclusion I’m emphasizing and it definitely shouldn’t be shocking or uncomfortable for any Catholic.

Please correct me if my information is wrong, but the origin of the so-called 5 non-negotiables was the “Voting Guide For Serious Catholics” created by Catholic Answers back in 2004. This guide is NOT an official publication of the Catholic Church and was NOT authorized by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. However, it has certainly been adopted by conservative clergy and voters who often pass it off as such.

 

[Path_Finder]

Please correct me if my information is wrong, but the origin of the so-called 5 non-negotiables was the “Voting Guide For Serious Catholics” created by Catholic Answers back in 2004. This guide is NOT an official publication of the Catholic Church and was NOT authorized by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. However, it has certainly been adopted by conservative clergy and voters who often pass it off as such.

You called it “invalid” in the other thread, you can call it false but you really can’t prove it. The documentation is in Vatican documents, so that doesn’t make it invalid or untrue. It’s basically playing a semantics games.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=746168 (the other thread with Vatican documents by Pope Benedict and others)

I’m glad people are out there TEACHING, what the Church teaches.

It can not be proven with an IMPRIMATUR that that booklet is false.

The UCSSB adopted it. So basically, we’re just playing a semantics game but the Vatican document does support such teachings.

And I have problems with people who simply want to negate a Christian duty to TEACH us with what the Church says. It’s not untrue.

 

[KP3243]

Please correct me if my information is wrong, but the origin of the so-called 5 non-negotiables was the “Voting Guide For Serious Catholics” created by Catholic Answers back in 2004. This guide is NOT an official publication of the Catholic Church and was NOT authorized by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. However, it has certainly been adopted by conservative clergy and voters who often pass it off as such.

The USCCB’s voting guide looks similar
usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship-part-two.cfm

 

[gracepoole]

Please correct me if my information is wrong, but the origin of the so-called 5 non-negotiables was the “Voting Guide For Serious Catholics” created by Catholic Answers back in 2004. This guide is NOT an official publication of the Catholic Church and was NOT authorized by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. However, it has certainly been adopted by conservative clergy and voters who often pass it off as such.

Correct.

catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=31706

 

[Path_Finder]

The USCCB’s voting guide looks similar
usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship-part-two.cfm

And so the other thread says it has an Imprimatur meaning nothing in it contradicts Catholic teaching.

 

[pnewton]

But hearing that the Democrats and atheists and others, “liking this Pope,” or like his priorities, or whatever, I in my right conscience cannot defend the Democrats any more.

Yes, I guess you can say I blame them, and surely never will defend them. I only understand the natural reasoning behind it.

The idea of a “wedge” only exists in some areas of the GOP, and some people, that are not in line with the Church’s teaching, as already exists copiously with Democrats and will always exist. As our first pope wrote, “This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,” and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.”

 

[Path_Finder]

nationalreview.com/corner/394994/three-cuban-spies-released-obama-helped-murder-four-americans-brendan-bordelon

Just to make it clear, yes, the National Review may be a biased source. Furthermore, we don’t know the exact role of the Vatican in the Cuban spies trade but if it was murderers for an innocent man, I do have to wonder about the cause for justice.

 

[shelby_sun]

That is a terrible mischaracterization of what I’ve argued thus far. It is defamation against a fellow Catholic who has already explained that she is pro-life. You’re now arguing against someone who agrees with the Church and with you. I suppose I’ll have to leave it there but it’s quite disappointing.

 

[gracepoole]

And so the other thread says it has an Imprimatur meaning nothing in it contradicts Catholic teaching.

Please open the Voting Guide for Serious Catholics and identify an imprimatur.

 

[gnjsdad]

They aren’t.

Yes they are.

Pope Francis agitates conservative U.S. Catholics

 

[shelby_sun]

The person being executed is protected from cruel and unusual punishment and they cannot be tortured to death. When there is a botched execution it is an abomination, I don’t support the death penalty in any way and was so disappointed it wasn’t removed in California when it was no the ballot a few years ago with that said a baby whose body is being pulled apart doesn’t even get the courtesy of
The person being executed is protected from cruel and unusual punishment and they cannot be tortured to death. When there is a botched execution it is an abomination, I don’t support the death penalty in any way and was so disappointed it wasn’t removed in California when it was no the ballot a few years ago with that said a baby whose body is being pulled apart doesn’t even get the courtesy of anesthetics while it’s head gets crushed. The number of abortions significantly higher than executions. We simply cannot look at ourselves as a nation and be disgusted with things like the Holocost when we allow abortion in our country.

I agree with the abortion issue in this country, absolutely. I do have an issue with caging up a human being for 40-50 years like animal that to me is inhuman, but their is no question in my mind that many of those people can never be around people again. It is not a matter of repentance, it is a matter that they are chemically to like other human beings.

My brother in law is a doctor for the most mentally ill people in the US and my husband has worked at a major US city crime lab for over twenty years, and people have no idea how monster like some of these killer are. Most can not let their minds go there out of fear. Watch the worst “Criminal Minds” shows you can find and they have actually happened in the US. I see where people would be against the death penalty, but I often think how they live is worse especially if God knows them to be truly sick or defective and might spare them.

 

[estesbob]

Yes they are.

Pope Francis agitates conservative U.S. Catholics

The article provides no specifics.

 

[Mulligan2]

The USCCB’s voting guide looks similar
usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship-part-two.cfm

It may look similar, but the USCCB’s voting guide takes precedence over a non-Church-sanctioned guide. From the USCCB:

During election years, there may be many handouts and voter guides that are produced and distributed. We encourage Catholics to seek those resources that are authorized by their own bishops, their state Catholic conferences, and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Also from the USCCB:

1. As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the promotion of racism, may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support.

Note the USCCB’s use of the word “may” in the last sentence. They did not use the word “must.” Also of note in the last sentence are the words “a voter.” The implication is that these are issues that EACH INDIVIDUAL VOTER must evaluate and determine on their own.

 

[KP3243]

It may look similar, but the USCCB’s voting guide takes precedence over a non-Church-sanctioned guide. From the USCCB:

During election years, there may be many handouts and voter guides that are produced and distributed. We encourage Catholics to seek those resources that are authorized by their own bishops, their state Catholic conferences, and the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Also from the USCCB:

1. As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the promotion of racism, may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support.

Note the USCCB’s use of the word “may” in the last sentence. They did not use the word “must.” Also of note in the last sentence are the words “a voter.” The implication is that these are issues that EACH INDIVIDUAL VOTER must evaluate and determine on their own.

What are you trying to prove here?

 

[Path_Finder]

The article provides no specifics.

That USA Today article seems to mention that meeting (Synod?) of the Bishops where gays and divorced Catholics seeking to receive Communion was discussed. So in this, we are talking about “Conservative Catholics”.

Conservative Catholic bishops push back on Pope Francis’ tone on gays (+video)

New York — A number of conservative bishops around the world are beginning to push back as Pope Francis tries to reshape the pastoral tenor of the Roman Catholic Church, attempting to bring a more inclusive and accepting ethos to the globe’s 1.2 billion Catholics.

On Monday, in a mid-meeting report of the debates under way at a gathering of bishops in Rome, the pope’s ongoing efforts to change the Catholic Church were again made resoundingly clear.

The report, called a “relatio post disceptationem,” or “report after debate,” has caused a sensation as many have hailed its unprecedented shift in tone about the nature of gay relationships, cohabitation before marriage, and remarriage after divorce.

csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2014/1014/Conservative-Catholic-bishops-push-back-on-Pope-Francis-tone-on-gays-video

 

[KP3243]

We should note that the conservative bishops at the Synod were the African bishops. They are always the most conservative. They don’t have the dissent in the Church that the West has and their people follow the Church teachings. Blessed are the poor…

 

[Darryl1958]

In fact to be obedient to the current pope, who calls for a radically critical relationship with the Church hierarchy, means to be critical of the pope himself.

To not be critical of pope and hierarchy is to encourage a continuing abuse of authority on behalf of hierarchy and even popes.
As laity, we often ourselves have been guilty of abusing authority, carrying around the judgments of the pope that we agree with in our back pockets, and using them against our political adversaries as some kind of a trump card.

The pope has served notice that that kind of relationship with the Church hierarchy will no longer be tolerated. Lack of criticism has led to lack of accountability, and a fat and lazy hierarchy is in no one’s interest.

It is a fair criticism that conservatives have often expressed that this pope shoots from the hip without a lot of forethought of how his quips will be received. Conservatives however are not critical of the pope for changing any essential church doctrine or dogma, because he has not.

In fact, by being critical of the pope, conservatives are being obedient to the pope and the kind of church he wants, a church where no one is above criticism. Liberals on the other hand, giddy with a pope who provides so many quotable quotes to the biased media, are choosing political advantage over actually taking the leadership of the pope to heart.

For the church to actually rise out of the scandals that abuse of authority has left us all in, we must used our criticism in order that the no church authority will ever again be able to pass off his chafe as grain.

 

[ProVobis]

We should note that the conservative bishops at the Synod were the African bishops. They are always the most conservative. They don’t have the dissent in the Church that the West has and their people follow the Church teachings.

I don’t think that that was what was reported.

But more to the point of the thread, and this is not attacking you, a wedge between Catholics and a major political party of a superpower in the world is something that shouldn’t be brushed off as a simple misunderstanding. It is quite serious.

 

[KP3243]

I don’t think that that was what was reported.

But more to the point of the thread, and this is not attacking you, a wedge between Catholics and a major political party of a superpower in the world is something that shouldn’t be brushed off as a simple misunderstanding. It is quite serious.

Yes that is what was reported in fact Cardinal Kaspar got himself in trouble for saying the African Bishops should be ignored.
catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3437/cardinals_kasper_and_dolan_and_the_african_bishops_updated.aspx

There is a wedge between both parties of a superpower. Saying there is not is a flat out lie and denial of truth. One of the worst things man can do is try to fit the divine into a political context, it’s why our Lord so profusely refuted a political kingship people kept wanting to put him in.

If we continue thinking along these lines it becomes apparent that what we are doing is rooted in our own egoism. When the mother of Zebedee’s sons, James and John petitions Jesus to have her sons sit to his right and the left in the Kingdom he is creating in Matthew 20 20-28 people’s true colors are revealed and Jesus calls them all out on it.

Articles like this are just a modern way of man trying to position himself, mainly his ego into showing that he is right while others are wrong giving him satisfaction that he is better. This article isn’t about global warming or climate change, is is about feeding egos. The real danger is that people don’t recognize this.