Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

[Tigg]

It would serve all Catholics well to ask Jesus for humility of heart and to remove all egoism when contemplating and discerning political issues. Too many of us have such vastly different viewpoints which is logically evident that something isn’t lining up. We cannot be Catholic and not hold the same truths something counterfeit is going on.

Perhaps the *sensus Catholicus *of some is a bit tainted?

 

[Ender]

I wonder why so many conservatives are upset with the Pope.

He has made any number of statements whose ambiguity have lent themselves to misuse. His “Who am I to judge” being a famous example. Bending other people’s words to their own purposes is an old practice, but Francis’s words have provided a bountiful harvest for those who are inclined to abuse them. I put it down to being less politically sensitive than his predecessors, but whatever the reason, being disappointed that such statements appear with some regularity is unsurprising. It is this that is the source of the whole idea that he is somehow driving a wedge between Catholics and Republicans. There is no truth to the assertion but a reasonable sounding case can be made.

Ender

 

[FollowChrist34]

He has made any number of statements whose ambiguity have lent themselves to misuse. His “Who am I to judge” being a famous example. Bending other people’s words to their own purposes is an old practice, but Francis’s words have provided a bountiful harvest for those who are inclined to abuse them. I put it down to being less politically sensitive than his predecessors, but whatever the reason, being disappointed that such statements appear with some regularity is unsurprising. It is this that is the source of the whole idea that he is somehow driving a wedge between Catholics and Republicans. There is no truth to the assertion but a reasonable sounding case can be made.

Ender

Well said. More and more I think there is a kind of a straw man ‘Francis, good liberal Catholic,’ that both sides are projecting onto this Pope, not unreasonably, as you note. But I think it is inaccurate. He is definitely opening things up; I am not sure that is a bad thing or agenda-driven. The Church has always prioritized the poor and disadvantaged; that is at the core of her mission. His personal politics are liberal but I am not convinced that he is supplanting his obligation to act as Holy Father (and all that entails) with his personal views. I don’t see him as lacking integrity in that way. And, again, what is so confusing about this ‘active liberal Francis’ mythology is the fact that liberals and conservatives both buy into it and perpetuate it. I mean, nothing in the Magisterium has changed yet, right? Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[gnjsdad]

He has made any number of statements whose ambiguity have lent themselves to misuse. His “Who am I to judge” being a famous example. Bending other people’s words to their own purposes is an old practice, but Francis’s words have provided a bountiful harvest for those who are inclined to abuse them. I put it down to being less politically sensitive than his predecessors, but whatever the reason, being disappointed that such statements appear with some regularity is unsurprising. It is this that is the source of the whole idea that he is somehow driving a wedge between Catholics and Republicans. There is no truth to the assertion but a reasonable sounding case can be made.

Ender

Is it really the case that the entire controversy between Francis and some conservative Republicans has been ginned up by those willfully distorting what the Pope says?

The Pope says “X”, but some mysterious people with an ax to grind distort “X” into “Y” when “Y” riles up conservatives?

You are claiming that the dispute has been artificially created. I find this dubious. The dispute is real and, I believe, boils down to the Pope calling out those who refuse to shed their erroneous ideological blinders, especially in the social and economic sphere.

You mention “who am I to judge”. We know the Pope is not going to change Church teaching on the depraved nature of homosexual acts. Yet we also know that those struggling with the affliction of SSA need to be reassured that the Church is always there for them, just as it is there for all us sinners.

Could it be that the Pope is calling out conservatives who are too harshly judgmental in the sexual sphere while they gloss over and in some cases are apologists for, a system that creates massive injustices in the economic arena?

Some conservatives act as if sexual sin is the only sin. Just my opinion.

 

[SuperLuigi]

gnjsdad:
[SIGN] Welcome Back [/SIGN]

Is it really the case that the entire controversy between Francis and some conservative Republicans has been ginned up by those willfully distorting what the Pope says?

Maybe. The American mainstream media has really seemed to twist some of what he said or at least convey a different message with their fingers crossed that Pope Francis will endorse some or all of their agenda.

You are claiming that the dispute has been artificially created. I find this dubious. The dispute is real and, I believe, boils down to the Pope calling out those who refuse to shed their erroneous ideological blinders, especially in the social and economic sphere.

Uh-huh. Funny how I never see this on the threads discussing so-called gay “marriage” from liberal Catholics.

It’s not entirely clear to me what the Pope is referring to about economics, but I’ve given the benefit of the doubt it’s Third World style corruption and not the free-market system of the West & parts of East Asia.

You mention “who am I to judge”.**

We know the Pope is not going to change Church teaching on the depraved nature of homosexual acts.

** Yet we also know that those struggling with the affliction of SSA need to be reassured that the Church is always there for them, just as it is there for all us sinners.

Well, that’s all true, when’s the last time a gay “marriage” activist conceded that? And I’m sure I don’t have to tell any Catholic who speaks out on sexual matters that a snide “Oh yeah? YOU CAN’T JUDGE ME!” card is pulled often sooner rather that later.

Could it be that the Pope is calling out conservatives who are too harshly judgmental in the sexual sphere

That may be true, however, Perhaps people are frustrated because they are not entirely certain what their obligations are regarding certain situations.

Some conservatives act as if sexual sin is the only sin.

Well, I think the emphasis is on abortion and to some extent so-called gay “marriage”, although the latter issue seems divided more along age groups than liberal vs. conservative.

 

[SuperLuigi]

What are you trying to prove here?

One possibility:

That it is okay to vote for pro-abortion, anti-marriage, anti-Catholic Democrats, Labour, Socialist Democrats ect. ect. as long as they promise (and they don’t really even have to keep the promise) to HELP THE POOR, and because they voted for that, why, that makes that person so feeling and caring!

I will also say I have seen certain Catholic liberals who seem to run all over the place trying to find loopholes to vote for the and in crowd while reaping all the benefits and seemingly bask in the adulation of non-Catholic liberals who may, just may forgive them for following such an out-dated religion in their view.

Ever wonder why they have all the disguises & excuses and just can’t come out and admit what they are doing if it’s so noble and great?

 

[zz912]

One possibility:

That it is okay to vote for pro-abortion, anti-marriage, anti-Catholic Democrats, Labour, Socialist Democrats ect. ect. as long as they promise (and they don’t really even have to keep the promise) to HELP THE POOR, and because they voted for that, why, that makes that person so feeling and caring!

I will also say I have seen certain Catholic liberals who seem to run all over the place trying to find loopholes to vote for the and in crowd while reaping all the benefits and seemingly bask in the adulation of non-Catholic liberals who may, just may forgive them for following such an out-dated religion in their view.

Ever wonder why they have all the disguises & excuses and just can’t come out and admit what they are doing if it’s so noble and great?

 

[Path_Finder]

One possibility:

That it is okay to vote for pro-abortion, anti-marriage, anti-Catholic Democrats, Labour, Socialist Democrats ect. ect. as long as they promise (and they don’t really even have to keep the promise) to HELP THE POOR, and because they voted for that, why, that makes that person so feeling and caring!

I will also say I have seen certain Catholic liberals who seem to run all over the place trying to find loopholes to vote for the and in crowd while reaping all the benefits and seemingly bask in the adulation of non-Catholic liberals who may, just may forgive them for following such an out-dated religion in their view.

Ever wonder why they have all the disguises & excuses and just can’t come out and admit what they are doing if it’s so noble and great?

Social programs too, highly questionable to say they are helping. And as we always hear, in some ways, it seems we have seen the family unit of some minorities damaged compared to before those social programs.

 

[Crossbones]

One possibility:

That it is okay to vote for pro-abortion, anti-marriage, anti-Catholic Democrats, Labour, Socialist Democrats ect. ect. as long as they promise (and they don’t really even have to keep the promise) to HELP THE POOR, and because they voted for that, why, that makes that person so feeling and caring!

I will also say I have seen certain Catholic liberals who seem to run all over the place trying to find loopholes to vote for the and in crowd while reaping all the benefits and seemingly bask in the adulation of non-Catholic liberals who may, just may forgive them for following such an out-dated religion in their view.

Ever wonder why they have all the disguises & excuses and just can’t come out and admit what they are doing if it’s so noble and great?

Or maybe that issues like unjust wars, torture, global warming and economic policies have a place in the conscience of a Catholic voter along with issues like abortion, homosexual marriage and freedom of religion.

 

[estesbob]

Is it really the case that the entire controversy between Francis and some conservative Republicans has been ginned up by those willfully distorting what the Pope says?

The Pope says “X”, but some mysterious people with an ax to grind distort “X” into “Y” when “Y” riles up conservatives?

You are claiming that the dispute has been artificially created. I find this dubious. The dispute is real and, I believe, boils down to the Pope calling out those who refuse to shed their erroneous ideological blinders, especially in the social and economic sphere.

You mention “who am I to judge”. We know the Pope is not going to change Church teaching on the depraved nature of homosexual acts. Yet we also know that those struggling with the affliction of SSA need to be reassured that the Church is always there for them, just as it is there for all us sinners.

Could it be that the Pope is calling out conservatives who are too harshly judgmental in the sexual sphere while they gloss over and in some cases are apologists for, a system that creates massive injustices in the economic arena?

Some conservatives act as if sexual sin is the only sin. Just my opinion.

And yet the primary people claiming a wedge has been driven are liberals trying once again to reconcile the teachings of the Church with their support of intrinsic evils .

 

[Crossbones]

And yet the primary people claiming a wedge has been driven are liberals trying once again to reconcile the teachings of the Church with their support of intrinsic evils .

Like torture and unjust wars.

 

[Darryl1958]

Torture and unjust wars are not wedge issues.

 

[Crossbones]

Torture and unjust wars are not wedge issues.

They are intrinsic evils.

 

[JimmyG88]

Good point! We certainly do feel threatened whenever the pope causes us to reconsider whatever it is we think is most important. I also tire of seeing so many explanations and reinterpretations of the Holy Father’s message. It seems to me these explanations and reinterpretations are given so that we can once more feel justified in doing whatever it is we’ve always done.

Isn’t it an oxymoron to suggest that the Pope is driving ‘a wedge’ between the church and conservative elements within it. Surely the most orthodox conservative of catholics would see it as their duty to be led by the Pope rather than simply try to rationalise his teachings with their own world view.

 

[Path_Finder]

They are intrinsic evils.

It’s up to everyone’s informed conscience. If you believe that they are “intrinsic evils” then the onus switches to the person asserting that, that they are intrinsic evils per documenata Vaticana.

 

[lynnvinc]

It would be ideal to vote for a pro-life candidate who was truly pro-life on all issues.

However, it is mandatory for a Catholic or any good person to stop harming and killing people themselves. That we can do or strive to do. We need to reduce our harms, both environmental and other harms. That we can do even if all around us refuse to do that or refuse to acknowledge they are doing that…like Cain.

 

[weller2]

If you believe that [unjust war and torture] are “intrinsic evils” then the onus switches to the person asserting that, that they are intrinsic evils per documenata Vaticana.

Torture is clear:

CCC 2297 Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity.

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/torture/torture-is-a-moral-issue.cfm
usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/torture/upload/torture-is-an-intrinsic-evil-study-guide.pdf
catechism.cc/articles/heresy-on-intrinsic-evil.htm

 

[JimmyG88]

Torture is clear:

CCC 2297 Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity.

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/torture/torture-is-a-moral-issue.cfm
usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/torture/upload/torture-is-an-intrinsic-evil-study-guide.pdf
catechism.cc/articles/heresy-on-intrinsic-evil.htm

Undoubtedly torture is wrong and indefensible

 

[weller2]

Isn’t it an oxymoron to suggest that the Pope is driving ‘a wedge’ between the church and conservative elements within it. Surely the most orthodox conservative of catholics would see it as their duty to be led by the Pope rather than simply try to rationalise his teachings with their own world view.

It appears that conservative Catholics are not really orthodox, rather, they are guilty of the same “cafeteria Catholicism” they accuse liberals of.

 

[Darryl1958]

They are intrinsic evils.

Torture and unjust wars are not part of the Republican platform.

They are not wedge issues.