Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

[SuperLuigi]

Or maybe that issues like unjust wars, torture, global warming and global warming have a place in the conscience of a Catholic voter along with issues like abortion, homosexual marriage and freedom of religion.

The Catholic leadership has cited ad nausem that abortion, marriage, euthanasia, human cloning, stem cell research and lately religious freedom are the top priorities.

unjust wars

If one is an American or a Brit, one should look at which party is behind most of the major wars.

In the USA, The Democrats got the USA involved in:

Civil War
WWI
WWII
Korea
Vietnam
Bay of Pigs
Somalia
Bosnia
Iraq----amended the War Powers to give Bush more authority and many agreed with him.

torture

I have never once heard the Church say that this issue should be even in the same league as abortion, marriage, euthansia, human cloning or religious freedom.

Also, I’m starting to find claims of this in terms of what the USA does dubious because by what some liberals are saying, the American military “tortures” its own soldiers during training.

But I have no idea what the Church teaching on interrogation techniques are other than the obvious.

global warming

For all intensive purposes—AGW is a hoax.

economic policies

Leftist economic policies do nothing to elevate the poor—they only make more poor, which I’m sure somewhere down the line is party of their strategy.

 

[SuperLuigi]

My main point is we are all cafeteria Catholics; I have no problem getting in this line as I am likewise in the “sinner” line.

I really hope this isn’t an excuse to vote pro-abortion, anti-marriage for some selfish reason(s).

 

[FollowChrist34]

I really hope this isn’t an excuse to vote pro-abortion, anti-marriage for some selfish reason(s).

Rest easy, I plan to vote Republican in the next election.

 

[Path_Finder]

Cafeteria Catholic though does not seem to be the right term in this case unless someone is definitely acting obviously counter to Church teaching. And even here, it is left to our informed consciences.

So, I think this issue can be opportunistically used to say others are “doing the same thing”. I don’t know if that is so. When I can help the poor, etc. I try to. It’s almost an absurd point to make.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Cafeteria Catholic though does not seem to be the right term in this case unless someone is definitely acting obviously counter to Church teaching. And even here, it is left to our informed consciences.

So, I think this issue can be opportunistically used to say others are “doing the same thing”. I don’t know if that is so. When I can help the poor, etc. I try to. It’s almost an absurd point to make.

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately there are many very complex issues that face us at this point in time, no matter who you are and what you believe. People are different and they have different priorities; in a free society you will never change that; people will make different choices. I personally try my darnedest to align myself with the Church’s teaching. I admit when I am going against a teaching, not in pride or willfulness, but shame. (Immigration is my biggest stumbling block.) Still, it happens. My point is it will happen either way - liberal or conservative. Nobody is perfect.

 

[Path_Finder]

Politico, indeed, made the headline “political”.

What if the headline was somewhat truer to the scenario, “Some Catholic Conservatives disagree with Pope Francis on issues”?

That would be no big deal, that pertains to about everyone. But no, we have the scenario that seems to convey, insinuate that Conservative Catholics are being polarized, isolated from the Pontiff.

“Driving a wedge” seems a bit of an exaggeration.

 

[JimmyG88]

The Catholic leadership has cited ad nausem that abortion, marriage, euthanasia, human cloning, stem cell research and lately religious freedom are the top priorities.

If one is an American or a Brit, one should look at which party is behind most of the major wars.

In the USA, The Democrats got the USA involved in:

Civil War
WWI
WWII
Korea
Vietnam
Bay of Pigs
Somalia
Bosnia
Iraq----amended the War Powers to give Bush more authority and many agreed with him.

I have never once heard the Church say that this issue should be even in the same league as abortion, marriage, euthansia, human cloning or religious freedom.

Also, I’m starting to find claims of this in terms of what the USA does dubious because by what some liberals are saying, the American military “tortures” its own soldiers during training.

But I have no idea what the Church teaching on interrogation techniques are other than the obvious.

For all intensive purposes—AGW is a hoax.

Leftist economic policies do nothing to elevate the poor—they only make more poor, which I’m sure somewhere down the line is party of their strategy.

I think we have some irreconcilable differences politically. What I don’t understand about the US is why it appears to be so proud of seperation of church and state when in fact a political party that was aligned to the Catholic church would satisfy many peoples’ desires. Maybe the problem with it is that there are too many ‘christian’ cults in the country

 

[JimmyG88]

The Catholic leadership has cited ad nausem that abortion, marriage, euthanasia, human cloning, stem cell research and lately religious freedom are the top priorities.

If one is an American or a Brit, one should look at which party is behind most of the major wars.

In the USA, The Democrats got the USA involved in:

Civil War
WWI
WWII
Korea
Vietnam
Bay of Pigs
Somalia
Bosnia
Iraq----amended the War Powers to give Bush more authority and many agreed with him.

I have never once heard the Church say that this issue should be even in the same league as abortion, marriage, euthansia, human cloning or religious freedom.

Also, I’m starting to find claims of this in terms of what the USA does dubious because by what some liberals are saying, the American military “tortures” its own soldiers during training.

But I have no idea what the Church teaching on interrogation techniques are other than the obvious.

For all intensive purposes—AGW is a hoax.

Leftist economic policies do nothing to elevate the poor—they only make more poor, which I’m sure somewhere down the line is party of their strategy.

Politico, indeed, made the headline “political”.

What if the headline was somewhat truer to the scenario, “Some Catholic Conservatives disagree with Pope Francis on issues”?

That would be no big deal, that pertains to about everyone. But no, we have the scenario that seems to convey, insinuate that Conservative Catholics are being polarized, isolated from the Pontiff.

“Driving a wedge” seems a bit of an exaggeration.

But surely a ‘conservative’ Catholic owes obedience to the Pope and not to publicly disagre with the Vicar of Christ

 

[Path_Finder]

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately there are many very complex issues that face us at this point in time, no matter who you are and what you believe. People are different and they have different priorities; in a free society you will never change that; people will make different choices. I personally try my darnedest to align myself with the Church’s teaching. I admit when I am going against a teaching, not in pride or willfulness, but shame. (Immigration is my biggest stumbling block.) Still, it happens. My point is it will happen either way - liberal or conservative. Nobody is perfect.

Yes, again, though for immigration, I think the Church allows room for differing opinions. I doubt if the Vatican thinks for Italy who is experiencing much illegal immigration from North Africa and other troubled areas that Italy should just let them all in, become citizens and be allowed to vote. I don’t think the Church teaches this.

The Church respects the sovereignty of borders.

 

[JimmyG88]

Yes, again, though for immigration, I think the Church allows room for differing opinions. I doubt if the Vatican thinks for Italy who is experiencing much illegal immigration from North Africa and other troubled areas that Italy should just let them all in, become citizens and be allowed to vote. I don’t think the Church teaches this.

The Church respects the sovereignty of borders.

And this emanating from a Nation of colonists and immigrants. Talk about pulling the ladder up when you yourself are happy

 

[Path_Finder]

And this emanating from a Nation of colonists and immigrants. Talk about pulling the ladder up when you yourself are happy

Can you name a country with lax rules of entry into a country?

UK? Israel? Switzer
land? Mexico? Canada? Poland? Russia? China? Which ones have such lenient laws?
None do. Of course, this doesn’t seem to fit just willy-nilly saying negative things about a country? Does it?

What (just for arguments sake) they were made illegal and difficult to buy. A shooting in the UK is still headline news. Guns in the hands of criminals are relatively rare, but come in from Eastern Europe (many made in the US thanks guys)

We don’t seem to be able to discern what the Papacy Vs Republican Party actually are. I expect that water boarding and illegal war are among the issues. That added to naked regime change, differences over global warming, the nature and purpose of capitalism might start the discussion

Oh, and for whatever “Naked Regime Change” is ?:

nytimes.com/2015/01/04/world/europe/ukraine-leader-was-defeated-even-before-he-was-ousted.html?_r=1

And whatever absurdly stating the Vatican has issued conclusive statements on water boarding as well.

catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2010/05/pope-benedict-xvi-and-condemnation-of.html

 

[JimmyG88]

Can you name a country with lax rules of entry into a country?

UK? Israel? Switzer
land? Mexico? Canada? Poland? Russia? China? Which ones have such lenient laws?
None do. Of course, this doesn’t seem to fit just willy-nilly saying negative things about a country? Does it?

Oh, and for whatever “Naked Regime Change” is ?:

nytimes.com/2015/01/04/world/europe/ukraine-leader-was-defeated-even-before-he-was-ousted.html?_r=1

And whatever absurdly stating the Vatican has issued conclusive statements on water boarding as well.

catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2010/05/pope-benedict-xvi-and-condemnation-of.html

Interesting stuff which seems to me to take a straightforward statement and twist and deform it to the idea of the author. What it says about the penal system alone would require a fundamental revisiting of the penal system in America, Africa and parts of Western Europe with the notable exclusion of the Low Countries Scandanavia and Germany

 

[Crossbones]

I don’t know of any party that supports torture and unjust wars. Pope Benedict, for example, said support of the Iraq and Afghani wars was a matter of prudential judgment.

Then you are either acting in good conscience and genuinely believe that the Iraq War was just and that ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ are not torture or you intentionally deluding yourself to justify your support for the Republican Party. That’s between you and God.

 

[Crossbones]

I don’t find the choice difficult at all nor should anyone who has taken the time to learn Church teachings find it difficult. The Democrat Party platform fully embraces the culture of death. It stands in direct opposition to core moral teachings of the Church. There is nothing n the GOP platform that is contrary to Church teaching.

Torture and unjust wars are in direct opposition to Church teaching. The Pope has talked/written about global warming and economic policies that are in direct opposition to the GOP positions on the matter.

So, perhaps you shouldn’t find the choice that simple and are choosing to ignore how some GOP policies are in direct opposition to the Church.

 

[Path_Finder]

Torture and unjust wars are in direct opposition to Church teaching. The Pope has talked/written about global warming and economic policies that are in direct opposition to the GOP positions on the matter.

So, perhaps you shouldn’t find the choice that simple and are choosing to ignore how some GOP policies are in direct opposition to the Church.

gop.com/platform/

Here is the link to the platform if you can show us exactly where it is that the GOP endorses torture, opposes global warming and the economic issues that you are addressing. So in other words, your statements don’t have a real foundation, it is opportunistically asserting such.

Democrats have been involved in starting more war, the war in Iraq was a culmination of their not allowing nuclear inspectors.

Also, if one believes websites like “anti-war.com”, then, the Clinton administration engaged in war and in fact, slapped sanctions on the country that some would assert was starving the people.

Oh, and by the way, the Vatican has documents about the responsibilities of governments, to protect people and so on. It has documents speaking about the right to self defense.

So, I don’t think your statements are coherent to a theological statement out of the Vatican. Maybe you can cite statement and then, we can debate right back instead of just taking the words of what one says as the Gospel Truth.

 

[Ender]

I haven’t read this thread, but other than torture what do conservatives believe that would make someone a Cafeteria Catholic

There is no reason to believe that conservative Catholics endorse torture; this is a false charge. What you will get are debates about what constitutes torture. You might get agreement about waterboarding, probably not so much about sleep deprivation. Yours is a valid question, just not the “other than” part.

Ender

 

[Havard]

We know that former Speaker Pelosi approved waterboarding and other “EIT’s” after 9/11. Then Sen. Feinstein defended her for doing so: "“I think it’s a tempest in a teapot really to say: Well, Speaker Pelosi should have known all of this, she should have stopped this, she should have done this or done that. I don’t want to make an apology for anybody, but in 2002, it wasn’t 2006, 07, 08 or 09. It was right after 9/11, and there were in fact discussions about a second wave of attacks.”

Separately, Hillary Clinton backed up “EIT’s”, saying ““in the event we were ever confronted with having to interrogate a detainee with knowledge of an imminent threat to millions of Americans,” it might be necessary for a president to make “the decision to depart from standard international practices.]”

Many other very prominent Democrats took that position when it was expedient, yet somehow the usage of EIT’s in the mid-2000’is twisted into “it was the GOP, Republicans are for torture.”

 

[estesbob]

1. Support for Iraq war (Benedict opposed) (I supported halfheartedly).
2. Opposition to gun control efforts. Support for and/or participation in proliferation of weapons in the US.
3. Opposition to immigration (I oppose immigration/amnesty.)
4. Opposition to efforts to combat climate change or in a larger sense, environmental protection. The environment is actually in better shape in the US now than it has been for over 50 years; this is due to environmentalists, certainly NOT to the Republican party who have fought much of the legislation and regulation that brought this about - though Republicans and their children enjoy and benefit from it as much as anyone else.
5. Laissez-faire capitalism (think “Mammon” “Golden Calf” Jesus telling the rich man to sell everything he owns if he wishes to enter the kingdom of God; Rich man walks away sad. Camel/eye of the needle; Two coats, give away one) Valuing money and the things of this world more than God. Idolatry. The Bible mentions the poor 2000 times (not my count); can’t list them all here. No laissez-faire capitalistic Pope has ever lived (well, maybe a few back in the bad days), certainly not in the last century. I agree they oppose socialism and communism (as do I) but also oppose materialism and consumerism of the West as “spiritual poverty” which contributes to global environmental and human exploitation, not to mention hedonism and secularism. I agree that individual charity is incredibly important here; I don’t think it precludes the need for regulated capitalism and support for those regulations. Again, the Popes and the CCC (social teaching) are with me here.
6. Support for torture.

Now show us where the Church has either endorsed or opposed either Party’s approach to these issues?

 

[estesbob]

Then you are either acting in good conscience and genuinely believe that the Iraq War was just and that ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ are not torture or you intentionally deluding yourself to justify your support for the Republican Party. That’s between you and God.

I don’t have to delude myself-unlike abortion and homosexual marriage the Church teaches these are matters of prudential judgment.

 

[estesbob]

Torture and unjust wars are in direct opposition to Church teaching. The Pope has talked/written about global warming and economic policies that are in direct opposition to the GOP positions on the matter.

So, perhaps you shouldn’t find the choice that simple and are choosing to ignore how some GOP policies are in direct opposition to the Church.

However we are not bound to accept your definition of torture or unjust wars. I don’t recall republicans supporting either.