Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

[FollowChrist34]

1. Pope Benedict himself said a Catholic could hold a different opinion on the Iraq War and still be a faithful Catholic. So that doesn’t qualify.
2. Nothing about gun ownership is contrary to Catholic teaching. Are you under the impression that the person political opinions of some bishops are Church teaching?
3. Same as #2. You can have a different opinion on this topic from the bishops.
4. Climate change is not part of Church teaching. Again, you are conflating personal opinions of some bishops with Church teaching.
5. Nothing about laissez-faire capitalism is contrary to Church teaching. Socialism is contrary to Church teaching.
6. No one supports torture. This is a strawman argument created by the left.

You seem to be under the erroneous belief that personal opinions of bishops are Church teaching. They aren’t.

You may have a point - I confess that I rely more on Scripture.

 

[zz912]

My main point is we are all cafeteria Catholics; I have no problem getting in this line as I am likewise in the “sinner” line.

This is just false.

Being a sinner who falters and commits sin is FAAAR different from someone who obstinately rejects Church teaching. We all fall and sin, that is what Confession is for. But no Catholic should reject Church teaching. A Catholic can know something is wrong, be tempted, and sin. That doesn’t mean they declared their sins as nonsinful.

Why does this sound like another excuse for Democratic catholics to justify their vote for pro-abortion politicians???

I may need to add this one to my list of excuses used. “Since everyone sins, then that means we’re ALL Cafeteria catholics and I can vote for virulently pro-abortion politicans”

 

[SWolf]

1. Pope Benedict himself said a Catholic could hold a different opinion on the Iraq War and still be a faithful Catholic. So that doesn’t qualify.
2. Nothing about gun ownership is contrary to Catholic teaching. Are you under the impression that the person political opinions of some bishops are Church teaching?
3. Same as #2. You can have a different opinion on this topic from the bishops.
4. Climate change is not part of Church teaching. Again, you are conflating personal opinions of some bishops with Church teaching.
5. Nothing about laissez-faire capitalism is contrary to Church teaching. Socialism is contrary to Church teaching.
6. No one supports torture. This is a strawman argument created by the left.

You seem to be under the erroneous belief that personal opinions of bishops are Church teaching. They aren’t.

I would add that for what people call Capitalism is nothing more than a set of free exchanges by consenting individuals. It is, at it’s core, individual freedom of action.

 

[zz912]

But surely a ‘conservative’ Catholic owes obedience to the Pope and not to publicly disagre with the Vicar of Christ

“Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.” - Cardinal Ratzinger

 

[stinkcat_14]

I would add that for what people call Capitalism is nothing more than a set of free exchanges by consenting individuals. It is, at it’s core, individual freedom of action.

So is prostitution. Free exchanges between individuals is fine in a large number of situations. The real question is, in what instances should they be limited. The Church gives us some guidance in this area, but there is certainly room for disagreement.

 

[FollowChrist34]

This is just false.

Being a sinner who falters and commits sin is FAAAR different from someone who obstinately rejects Church teaching. We all fall and sin, that is what Confession is for. But no Catholic should reject Church teaching. A Catholic can know something is wrong, be tempted, and sin. That doesn’t mean they declared their sins as nonsinful.

Why does this sound like another excuse for Democratic catholics to justify their vote for pro-abortion politicians???

I may need to add this one to my list of excuses used. “Since everyone sins, then that means we’re ALL Cafeteria catholics and I can vote for virulently pro-abortion politicans”

Actually that was not my logic or my intention (I am an Independent), but I suspect that is neither here nor there…

 

[zz912]

Well fortunately we haven’t had a candidate or political party that supports unjust wars or torture so it isnt an issue when we go to vote. Abortion, homosexual marriage and forcing Catholics to pay for contraception is. One party supports this-the other opposes it. That is the wedge-a wedge that separates the Democrat Party from the Church. No such wedge exists between the GOP and the Church.

This is a very true statement, and one I wish more of our Democratic Catholic friends would comprehend.

The DNC is objectively, and decisively separated from the Church. The party platform is in DIRECT contradiction to Church teaching. Support for the DNC is support for the promotion of things in direct contradiction to the Church.

 

[JimmyG88]

“Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.” - Cardinal Ratzinger

I have never had difficulty with that. I have to say what I do find vaguely amusing is that now that the Pope says things that may cause a stir with more conservative folks it’s becoming quite a popular thing to disagree with the Pope on here. Just saying

 

[SWolf]

So is prostitution. Free exchanges between individuals is fine in a large number of situations. The real question is, in what instances should they be limited. The Church gives us some guidance in this area, but there is certainly room for disagreement.

Yup. Free exchanges can be sinful, but they are not INHERENTLY sinful.

The above was a response to an assertion from a previous poster that Laissez-Faire was against Church teaching.

You can be a good Catholic and have major disagreements about what sorts of free exchanges, if any, should be curtailed by force.

 

[zz912]

Because the Republican party is not in charge. Hard to be evil on the sidelines.

You know, if the Republicans would come out and say, gee, that was ridiculous and stop defending the indefensible, then I might be inclined to believe that the situation wouldn’t repeat itself. But I’m not seeing that.

The DNC supports intrisic evil whether they are in power or not. And it is NOT hard to be evil on the sidelines. Every person on this earth can commit evil, and every organization can commit evil as well. The DNC commits evil in its support and promotion of intrisic evils.

And your second point, because you disagree with some in the GOP that EIT is torture, that’s enough wiggle room for you to justify your support for the virulently pro-abortion party?

 

[zz912]

Platforms are pretty useless in determining how a party is going to govern.

Sounds like another excuse for a Democrat catholic to support the virulently pro-abortion party…

“The party doesn’t REALLY govern according to their party platforms, so it’s okay for me to vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.”

 

[JimmyG88]

I see. But did they have a government which subsidized their undertaking?

Here in the UK and in Ireland anything that is Nationalised is not ‘owned’ by the government it’s owned by the population as a whole. You know that Socialism isn’t such a dirty concept in Europe?

 

[zz912]

I think what American posters understand by socialism isn’t the same as it is understood in Europe. Communism and Socialism are distinct ideologies. Ownership in common is surely apostolic?

Feel free to set up a PRIVATE commune and live as the early Church did in Acts.

There is NOTHING apostolic about the govt controlling and owning everything. In fact, it is contrary to Church teaching, so it is the opposite of Apostolic.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Sounds like another excuse for a Democrat catholic to support the virulently pro-abortion party…

“The party doesn’t REALLY govern according to their party platforms, so it’s okay for me to vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.”

It certainly is sufficient reason not to vote for republicans.

 

[JimmyG88]

Yup. Free exchanges can be sinful, but they are not INHERENTLY sinful.

The above was a response to an assertion from a previous poster that Laissez-Faire was against Church teaching.

You can be a good Catholic and have major disagreements about what sorts of free exchanges, if any, should be curtailed by force.

Why is the trade in recreational drugs so limited? Why can’t you buy a drink in a bar until you are almost too old to enjoy it? 24 hour casinos on every corner could be fun.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Anybody here remember Swift’s Tale of a Tub - Peter and the shoulder knots? Doubt it, but I just can’t resist. Priceless and timely.

 

[JimmyG88]

Feel free to set up a PRIVATE commune and live as the early Church did in Acts.

There is NOTHING apostolic about the govt controlling and owning everything. In fact, it is contrary to Church teaching, so it is the opposite of Apostolic.

Lol. OK! Don’t get upset. I’m discussing the inherent nature rather than the literal nature

 

[zz912]

Thank you. No argument here. Ah, cafeteria Catholics, what a happy, numerous bunch we are. Cheers all!

Don’t slander the many faithful Catholics on these boards. A Cafeteria catholic rejects some or all of Church teaching.

Your new attempt at excusing support for the virulently pro-abortion party is noted.

 

[SWolf]

Here in the UK and in Ireland anything that is Nationalised is not ‘owned’ by the government it’s owned by the population as a whole.

Yup, and everything in the USSR was owned ‘by the people’.

 

[JimmyG88]

This is a very true statement, and one I wish more of our Democratic Catholic friends would comprehend.

The DNC is objectively, and decisively separated from the Church. The party platform is in DIRECT contradiction to Church teaching. Support for the DNC is support for the promotion of things in direct contradiction to the Church.

I believe that the Republican Party has candidates who support abortion for rape and birth defects. Mitt Romney? I know Nixon did and that’s when you had Roe v Wade