Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

[shelby_sun]

I think a lot of Francis’ popularity is because of the media support and even sometimes deliberate mishandling of his statements - on a pretty superficial level. I agree with you that that appeals more than Benedict to those who are secular or not sympathetic to the Church for whatever reason. But I think even with a basic knowledge about the teaching of the Church you quickly see the parallel between Francis and the former Popes, and indeed, the Church as it has always stood. There is a certain re-branding that is going on, a repackaging. I am not sure how many of those individuals are actually finding Christ in a meaningful way or just deciding that they don’t hate the Catholic Church as much as they used to because it seems to affirm their values a little more closely. I also think many so called conservatives are undergoing a lot of intense unnecessary suffering and panic.

First, if you know the Jesuits you would not believe that the media is deliberately mishandling the Pope’s statements. Many of the statement sound very Jesuit like, and if they were doing that the Pope would definitely take the time to correct them. Maybe it is those that cannot seem to accept that he is actually saying what the media is reporting are the ones panicing.

I have always found it very uncomfortable for the Church to keep such wealth and more and more it seem like one big secretive government which is probably how it is seen to non-Catholics. What do Catholic say about these big, fancy mega churches in the US.

To me there are some that are just trying to follow God, and other who worship the Church above all else. Maybe Pope Francis is trying to bring it all together. All I know is men who knew better what the Church needed than anyone here elected him, knowing what he was like.

 

[_Abyssinia]

10 Quotes That Prove The Pope Is A Liberal

The Pope is soft on Islam.

“It is true that the Muslim world is not totally mistaken when it reproaches the West of Christian tradition of moral decadence and the manipulation of human life.”

Encourages Homosexuality.

“It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the church’s pastors wherever it occurs.”

He is focused on the poor:

"Many people today lack hope. They are perplexed by the questions that present themselves ever more urgently in a confusing world, and they are often uncertain which way to turn for answers. They see poverty and injustice and they long to find solutions. "

“Yet if we refuse to share what we have with the hungry and the poor, we make of our possessions a false god. How many voices in our materialist society tell us that happiness is to be found by acquiring as many possessions and luxuries as we can! But this is to make possessions into a false god. Instead of bringing life, they bring death.”

He is overtly humble and does not embrace his office:

“The authority of the pope is not unlimited;”

“The cardinals have elected me, a simple and humble worker in the Lord’s vineyard. The fact that the Lord can work and act even with insufficient means consoles me, and above all I entrust myself to your prayers.”

He makes a point of extolling women and the Church.

“It is theologically and anthropologically important for woman to be at the center of Christianity. Through Mary, and the other holy women, the feminine element stands at the heart of the Christian religion.”

On those neo-pelagians that think they can earn their way to heaven through piety instead of charity:

“If in my life I fail completely to heed others, solely out of a desire to be ‘devout’ and to perform my ‘religious duties’, then my relationship with God will also grow arid. It becomes merely ‘proper’, but loveless.”

He cares about the environment:

“Listen to the voice of the earth…”

He even hates Capitalism:

“the prevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindset which also finds expression in an unregulated capitalism”

So, it is time we face the facts. It is clear that he is a radical departure from previous Popes, in particular his predecessor.

In fairness, I must note that there might be one small problem with my analysis. So small I hesitate to even bring it up. Every quote above is from Pope Benedict. Every one.

ncregister.com/blog/pat-archbold/10-quotes-that-prove-the-pope-is-a-liberal#ixzz3NbeXAdye sarcasm

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I think a lot of Francis’ popularity is because of the media support and even sometimes deliberate mishandling of his statements - on a pretty superficial level. I agree with you that that appeals more than Benedict to those who are secular or not sympathetic to the Church for whatever reason. But I think even with a basic knowledge about the teaching of the Church you quickly see the parallel between Francis and the former Popes, and indeed, the Church as it has always stood. There is a certain re-branding that is going on, a repackaging. I am not sure how many of those individuals are actually finding Christ in a meaningful way or just deciding that they don’t hate the Catholic Church as much as they used to because it seems to affirm their values a little more closely. I also think many so called conservatives are undergoing a lot of intense unnecessary suffering and panic.

I think it’s a lot more than how the media is portraying Pope Francis.

His humility in not living like a king, is noticed by the world.

The fact that he’s reforming Vatican finances and making the Church more transparent in this area, is a plus.

His telling members of the mafia, that they are excommunicated, destroys the perception, which is sometimes accurate, that the Church is in bed with members of organized crime.

His created a commission to handle sex abuse by the Vatican and he included two victims of sexual abuse to the panel. This shows the world that he has the Church working on the level of the people, rather than the elite hierarchy.

His calling of the synod together to being looking at ways to help divorced and remarried Catholics, who have been shunned from the Church. How this all plays out we don’t know, perhaps nothing will change. However, he has the Cardinals looking at it, and the overall result must have those divorced and remarried Catholics looking at their own situations and contemplating how to make it right.

Perhaps, many will come back to the Church through the proper channels.

Praise God if they do.

In all, Pope Francis is calling sinners to come to Jesus Christ. His message is getting out there and we should be supporting him.

Jim

 

[SuperLuigi]

=ringil;12618967]And the rightist Catholics continue to state that the Pope is continually being misquoted, taken out of contrast, or warped.

That’s the first I’ve heard from anyone that the Pope has been taken out of context. So then does this mean that when Rush Limbaugh called the Pope a Marxist, that he was right?

I understand it must be hard to swallow the idea that your religious leader doesn’t share your basic economic and social ideas but pretending that his views aren’t his own is just transparent and immature.

Conservative economic theories work, liberal ones = EPIC FAIL.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I think it’s a lot more than how the media is portraying Pope Francis.

His humility in not living like a king, is noticed by the world.

The fact that he’s reforming Vatican finances and making the Church more transparent in this area, is a plus.

His telling members of the mafia, that they are excommunicated, destroys the perception, which is sometimes accurate, that the Church is in bed with members of organized crime.

His created a commission to handle sex abuse by the Vatican and he included two victims of sexual abuse to the panel. This shows the world that he has the Church working on the level of the people, rather than the elite hierarchy.

His calling of the synod together to being looking at ways to help divorced and remarried Catholics, who have been shunned from the Church. How this all plays out we don’t know, perhaps nothing will change. However, he has the Cardinals looking at it, and the overall result must have those divorced and remarried Catholics looking at their own situations and contemplating how to make it right.

Perhaps, many will come back to the Church through the proper channels.

Praise God if they do.

In all, Pope Francis is calling sinners to come to Jesus Christ. His message is getting out there and we should be supporting him.

Jim

:yyeess:

 

[SuperLuigi]

Hmm, of course this would drive a wedge between the GOP, but thankfully it is uniting the rest of the world, especially young people, and giving them a wonderful breath of fresh air.

The purpose of this comment seems to be nothing more than a swipe at the GOP.

His kindness, his tone, and his beautiful messages of peace, acceptance, tolerance and kindness are definitely changing the world, and the way the world looks at the Catholic Church. Which is a great thing.

The Pope has also reaffirmed that abortion and so-called gay “marriage” are wrong.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Isn’t it better to bet on a punishing God, though? I’m thinking along the lines of Pascal’s Wager here. As well as the act of contrition itself.

Agreed, now that IS a breath of fresh air. Much of the time self-indulgence is our real new God, aka “mercy,” which has a little nicer ring to it. That’s why I like CAF! I feel like I am reading the Scarlet Letter… (just a joke, mostly…) Somewhere between all this is Jesus, surely…

 

[SuperLuigi]

=powerofk;12620983]You said I was talking about giving money to the poor. If that’s what you think I meant, so be it. And it sounded a bit defensive. Pope Francis is no “Liberal”, and he’s no “Conservative”, either. But his point remains - people must not become objects, as all human beings are created in the image of God.

I strongly suggest avoid using the word “you” on the News Forums.

It’s important to realize that people make logical deductions on here all the time.

No, my post wasn’t defensive, it was factual.

Yet any and all economic systems have the ability to objectify, some worse than others.

This sounds like relativism. The Church has made it very clear that socialism, communism and central planning are evil ideas. :yup:

It is not sufficient for any Catholic to just sit back and say “oh, well, gee, there’s good and bad with each system”.

We can and should do better.

 

[shelby_sun]

I strongly suggest avoid using the word “you” on the News Forums.

It’s important to realize that people make logical deductions on here all the time.

No, my post wasn’t defensive, it was factual.

This sounds like relativism. The Church has made it very clear that socialism, communism and central planning are evil ideas. :yup:

It is not sufficient for any Catholic to just sit back and say “oh, well, gee, there’s good and bad with each system”.

We can and should do better.

I would bet that the Pope would love to say that he is very disturbed by how much the Curia have and how well they live when there are homeless people all over the world. Eating the finest food in Italy, to there living quarters, to what they wear. I believe there is a lot more to come, but I do not believe the media is altering his words.

Being raised with the Jesuits, I always found the Vatican and the fancy Churches so non Christ like. I could never, ever imagine Christ living like the Popes throughout history, how that came to be was with greed corruption and a business like thinking of the leaders of the Church through out history, it was not being lead by God.

It is hard for non Catholics to rationalize the vast wealth of the Church and the Vatican as priest, bishops, etc. are constantly telling the common everyday man to give more to help those in need. Every priest at every parish in my city, which is a major US city, has there very own car, when there are families of 6,7,8 with one old broken down car. Many in the Church simply do not sacrifice like they once did and that is what the world sees.

 

[Darryl1958]

I think it’s a lot more than how the media is portraying Pope Francis.

His humility in not living like a king, is noticed by the world.

That has been reported, and has engendered only praise, not criticism.

The fact that he’s reforming Vatican finances and making the Church more transparent in this area, is a plus.

That has been reported, and is also not the subject of any criticism, but only praise.

His telling members of the mafia, that they are excommunicated, destroys the perception, which is sometimes accurate, that the Church is in bed with members of organized crime.

This is according to reports that I have heard in the news as well, and has been welcomed in all quarters.

His created a commission to handle sex abuse by the Vatican and he included two victims of sexual abuse to the panel. This shows the world that he has the Church working on the level of the people, rather than the elite hierarchy.

This has been a failure on the level of all the popes who preceded him, who had not been able to establish enough distance between themselves and the scandal. Maybe his understanding of himself as an outsider will really help to repair a small part of the damage that has been done. It will take generations, and maybe even longer, before the Church will be able to rise above the role of the hierarchy in that scandal.
His role as a no nonsense reformer of the hierarchy is commendable, and has been reported and received as welcome news. Whatever the hierarchy may want, they have not choice but to defer, or remain in the shadows on this issue.

His calling of the synod together to being looking at ways to help divorced and remarried Catholics, who have been shunned from the Church. How this all plays out we don’t know, perhaps nothing will change. However, he has the Cardinals looking at it, and the overall result must have those divorced and remarried Catholics looking at their own situations and contemplating how to make it right.

The problem of the broken family is probably a bit more than any Synod can fix.

Perhaps, many will come back to the Church through the proper channels.

Praise God if they do.

In all, Pope Francis is calling sinners to come to Jesus Christ. His message is getting out there and we should be supporting him.

Hard to say.

Taking a few steps to distance the Church from corruption and abuses is commendable, but there is an irony involved in noting that the mafia was playing a part of the church in the first place, which puts a definite damper on evangelization efforts.

The structural accountability of the Church hierarchy still does not exist. Is there any reason to believe that these reforms will not pass away with the pope?

Anyway, the pope has received very little criticism and much praise from virtually everybody on these points. These would not be wedge issues for people who sway toward a GOP vote.

 

[Al_Moritz]

These would not be wedge issues for people who sway toward a GOP vote.

Others are. From Francis’ encyclical Evangelii Gaudium (emphasis added):

1. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting.

 

[John_Savage]

I am sorry but the GOP does not represent the Catholic Church or the faith
Whilst its support for pro-lie issues and its anti gay marriage stand is in line with the faith its siding with greedy big business is very far from the Catholic view of the world and morality

Are you aware that big business and rich people give more money to Democrats than Republicans?

 

[Crossbones]

Others are. From Francis’ encyclical Evangelii Gaudium (emphasis added):

1. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting.

Besides that…

 

[lynnvinc]

Sorry, but under Benedict many Catholics took evangelizing to mean point out other sins and telling them if they do not repent they are going to hell, leading to a much more negative view of the Church. Now I do not think Benedict preached for people to say that, but there are several posters on this site that have said exactly that.

I always find it interesting when someone has a problem that maybe, just maybe a non Catholic may get to heaven. A good loving Catholic would be happy and welcome that person into heaven, if they themselves received the grace to get in. They are many that want to focus on the punishing God rather than one the loving God portrayed in the Bible. If you were ever bored, that is on you not them.

OTOH – no one talks about hell much – it is probably more likely that an evil-doing, non-repentant Catholic will go to hell than his/her counterpart in some other religion or belief/value system. That’s bec supposedly we have the benefit of 2000 yrs of Church teachings and guidance and the sacraments. From those that have more will be expected

While I’m on the subject, it occurred to me as I was just in time to have the check-out lady put my groceries in my reusable shopping bag – so unaccustomed she is to anyone ever bringing their own bags – that if people can’t do very tiny things like that then they won’t be able to do the 100s of other tiny things and many bigger things to reduce their harm to their fellow humans and others of God’s creatures. Of course, I understand the ramifications of how my actions contribute to the harming others, and maybe others don’t, so it would be a much greater fault on my part not to bring my own bags and the 100s of other things I do to reduce my harm.

But surely everyone should know about these types of simple actions to reduce harms. Surely everyone should know anthropogenic climate change is real. There is NO excuse not to know. Not now. Maybe before 1995 (the year science reached 95% confidence that ACC was real), but not now. Listening to and believing what liars and dupers say is not much of an excuse either. God gave us brains and hearts to figure things out even when one mistakenly thinks there is a controversy about it (when it is only the fossil-fuel-funded CC denialist industry that has duped people into believing there is a controversy or that ACC is not happening).

I was glad to see that William F. Buckley – a Catholic and arch-conservative – came to accept climate science at the end of his life.

Here is a site for conservatives that accept climate science, “Climate Conservative.” Hope this helps:

climateconservative.org/
climateconservative.org/?page_id=28

 

[SuperLuigi]

Others are. From Francis’ encyclical Evangelii Gaudium (emphasis added):

1. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting.

That is absolutely inaccurate if it refers to Reagan economics, and I do have doubts that it does.

What people fail to realize is that the Pope’s background is Latin American, whose governments are far more corrupt than the US government is.

 

[SuperLuigi]

But surely everyone should know about these types of simple actions to reduce harms. Surely everyone should know anthropogenic climate change is real.

Except that it isn’t real.

God gave us brains and hearts to figure things out even when one mistakenly thinks there is a controversy about it (when it is only the fossil-fuel-funded CC denialist industry that has duped people into believing there is a controversy or that ACC is not happening).

Which is exactly why, as an environmental scientists, I reject AGW on it’s head.

I was glad to see that William F. Buckley – a Catholic and arch-conservative – came to accept climate science at the end of his life.

Well, I’m also glad to see that some Democrats reject global warming.

Also, I think William F. Buckley would not be so gung-ho about climate change given scandals like climate-gate as well as the incompetence, laziness and intolerance in the peer-review process in academia on this issue.

 

[powerofk]

Others are. From Francis’ encyclical Evangelii Gaudium (emphasis added):

1. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting.

And that’s actually what I meant by him saying that there are problems with market-based economics. The truth is, all economic systems are human creations, and, as developed by fallen people, are not going to be perfect. Some are worse than others, agreed - for instance Communism completely rejects God and considers workers to pretty much be cogs in the State’s machine. But this does not mean that our market-based system is perfect, either. Our market-based system is based on consumption, as our large corporations require the people to continue to buy more stuff to turn profits.

We end up with all these things that we don’t need, and we have the chance to become like the “Rich Young Man” who left Jesus in despair, as Jesus told him to sell all that he had, give his money to the poor, and then follow Him. One of the saints stated that “Jesus did not only come to comfort the afflicted - He came to afflict the comfortable”. And read the Magnificat, Mary’s song of praise. Maybe we’ve become too comfortable in the US and need to be shaken up - it will bring us to a deeper level of holiness.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Are you aware that big business and rich people give more money to Democrats than Republicans?

 

[Darryl1958]

Others are. From Francis’ encyclical Evangelii Gaudium (emphasis added):

1. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting.

x
Well, it seems as others have given the better response to that.

I agree that there are other issues that have been either raised by the pope, or inaccurately reported by the media, that are wedge issues.

It was worthwhile pointing out though, that the issues that Jim focused on, are not the wedge issues.

 

[Al_Moritz]

That is absolutely inaccurate if it refers to Reagan economics, and I do have doubts that it does.

What people fail to realize is that the Pope’s background is Latin American, whose governments are far more corrupt than the US government is.

I disagreee with your first sentence, and the second one is a cop-out. Do you really think the Pope has no clue what he’s talking about? Lame excuses are lame excuses.