Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

[Ridgerunner]

Why do you think giving cash is the answer, that it solves anything?
Facts show that increased spending doesn’t alleviate poverty.

Giving cash doesn’t solve everything, but it can solve SOMETHING. I recall at our parish, for example, one could “adopt” children or adults by donating $30/month to a Catholic charity operated by a religious order. I recall seeing that would be a 50% income increase to a semi-disabled farmer in the Dominican Republic. $30 wouldn’t make him a middle class American, but a 50% increase in income is always dramatic in ways we perhaps couldn’t see, but which the individual could.

Would that increase dependency? Well, maybe, and in a very small way. But it’s sort of difficult to think of that as being a society-destroyer. That’s a long way from the government providing $60,000 in goods and services to a multi-generation welfare family.

 

[ProVobis]

Why do you think giving cash is the answer, that it solves anything?
Facts show that increased spending doesn’t alleviate poverty.

Giving one’s time and teaching should work then, no? I’m not sure I know which side you’re on.

Perhaps I should have stated my position a little clearer. Those who support Pope Francis position through other people’s time and money, aren’t really focusing on a Christian message here. What do they say about charity beginning at home?

 

[Darryl1958]

See above - there was also a corresponding article on how the church will fall like a house of cards if she focuses too much on the abortion and gay issue. The real culprit might be the media, but I can see the merit of this article in the OP.

Statements about Catholics ‘obsessing’ over abortion constitute a wedge issue for sure.

 

[Theo520]

Giving cash doesn’t solve everything, but it can solve SOMETHING. I recall at our parish, for example, one could “adopt” children or adults by donating $30/month to a Catholic charity operated by a religious order. I recall seeing that would be a 50% income increase to a semi-disabled farmer in the Dominican Republic. $30 wouldn’t make him a middle class American, but a 50% increase in income is always dramatic in ways we perhaps couldn’t see, but which the individual could.

Would that increase dependency? Well, maybe, and in a very small way. But it’s sort of difficult to think of that as being a society-destroyer. That’s a long way from the government providing $60,000 in goods and services to a multi-generation welfare family.

I think everyone should donate $ and time to their community, but only a moron thinks sending $$$ to the Dominican Republic will magically change their corrupt Govt and make the lives of ave citizens better. There is ZERO evidence that long term financial aid fixes broken countries. It just makes their 1% even richer.

Suggest you read this book: Moral Case for Fossil Fuels

Giving one’s time and teaching should work then, no? I’m not sure I know which side you’re on.

Perhaps I should have stated my position a little clearer. Those who support Pope Francis position through other people’s time and money, aren’t really focusing on a Christian message here. What do they say about charity beginning at home?

As noted above, I am a firm believer in donating our time and money, mostly to local causes. Indonesia or the Philippines don’t need $$ to enable teaching mothers about the benefits of breastfeeding. You have to stop treating other countries like they are a bunch of imbeciles.

 

[kenmiller]

It is problematic for the pope to be on a Al Gore global warming crusade when this issue is about propaganda , politics , misinformation and so forth -

Praying the pope somehow understands this

Hail Mary …

 

[ProVobis]

I think everyone should donate $ and time to their community, but only a moron thinks sending $$$ to the Dominican Republic will magically change their corrupt Govt and make the lives of ave citizens better. There is ZERO evidence that long term financial aid fixes broken countries. It just makes their 1% even richer.

Suggest you read this book: Moral Case for Fossil Fuels

As noted above, I am a firm believer in donating our time and money, mostly to local causes. Indonesia or the Philippines don’t need $$ to enable teaching mothers about the benefits of breastfeeding. You have to stop treating other countries like they are a bunch of imbeciles.

Fair points. Personally I would like to see some accounting numbers on overseas contributions by individuals. Give-for-the-sake-of-giving can easily have unintended consequences.

 

[Crossbones]

I think we all know how this goes.

1. Pope releases statement, encyclical, etc. on something that is contrary to the positions of the Republican Party.
2. Catholics supporters of the Republican Party use one of the following:

a) The Pope doesn’t understand _______ and thus has no authority I am obliged to follow (blank can be economic policies, global warming, …)

b) The Pope said that, but I am using my prudential judgment that what the Pope said doesn’t apply in this case (e.g., torture, unjust wars, …)

c) Sure, but the Democrats support _________ and that trumps what the Pope said when I get in the voting booth (e.g., abortion, Sisters of Mercy contraceptives, …)

Now some may be truthful when they state one of the above that they do so with an honest heart, but for many others, it’s just verbal gymnastics, worthy of an Olympic event.

 

[weller2]

Now some may be truthful when they state one of the above that they do so with an honest heart, but for many others, it’s just verbal gymnastics, worthy of an Olympic event.

I’m eagerly waiting to see Glenn Beck et.al. quoting Hans Kung on papal (in)fallibility.

 

[Al_Moritz]

I think we all know how this goes.

1. Pope releases statement, encyclical, etc. on something that is contrary to the positions of the Republican Party.
2. Catholics supporters of the Republican Party use one of the following:

a) The Pope doesn’t understand _______ and thus has no authority I am obliged to follow (blank can be economic policies, global warming, …)

b) The Pope said that, but I am using my prudential judgment that what the Pope said doesn’t apply in this case (e.g., torture, unjust wars, …)

c) Sure, but the Democrats support _________ and that trumps what the Pope said when I get in the voting booth (e.g., abortion, Sisters of Mercy contraceptives, …)

Now some may be truthful when they state one of the above that they do so with an honest heart, but for many others, it’s just verbal gymnastics, worthy of an Olympic event.

Perfect five-star post!

Yeah, the ‘prudential judgment’ excuse. Oh, and when it comes to economy, we have the ‘subsidiarity principle’ shtick (falsely applied term from Catholic social teaching as cheap excuse to justify any GOP atrocity when it comes to economic inequality and help for the poor).

 

[estesbob]

Here’s how it goes

1.The Pope makes it rather innocuous comment affirming church teaching.
2. The secular media reports it as the pope slapping down conservatives
3. Democrats Catholics claim that Republicans are hypocrites for not buying into the secular media narrative
4. Democrats Catholics now claim they have still another reason to rationalize voting in support of the culture of death
5. Democrat Catholic Slap each other on the back about how clever they are

 

[Crossbones]

Perfect five-star post!

Yeah, the ‘prudential judgment’ excuse. Oh, and when it comes to economy, we have the ‘subsidiarity principle’ shtick (falsely applied term from Catholic social teaching as cheap excuse to justify any GOP atrocity when it comes to economic inequality and help for the poor).

Thank you. I forgot about subsidiarity. Yes, the conservative American’s interpretation that goes way beyond how any bishop applies it. If you ask for an example from a bishop condemning the same thing they use when applying subsidiarity, they say the bishops don’t point out evil.

Clearly cafeteria Catholicism at its finest.

 

[lynnvinc]

It is problematic for the pope to be on a Al Gore global warming crusade …

I found it – something to send the Holy Father so he will understand how he got tangled up with Al Gore in people’s minds;

Uma Verdade Inconveniente vimeo.com/24857305

 

[Al_Moritz]

Clearly cafeteria Catholicism at its finest.

Yes, I guess in quite a few cases it goes as follows:

1. Catholic thinks that s/he allegedly has no choice but to vote GOP because of the pro-life issue.
2. Catholic then needs to justify being pro-GOP by rationalizing away all the atrocities of party ideology that go counter Catholic social teaching.
3. Catholic adopts the GOP ‘conservative’ stance warts and all. ‘Prudential judgment’ and ‘subsidiarity principle’ then form a convenient excuse for justifying social hard-heartedness.

I was struck by the following post earlier in the thread by Lynnvinc (emphasis added):

The Catholic Church as ALWAYS been conservative on personal issues (sexuality, abortion, etc) and liberal on social issues…esp those in which we are harming others and those in which we are allowing others to suffer without doing anything about it.

In fact, as I was raised Protestant during the 50s, my mom used to tell us how Catholics were communists. By the 60s when I met my husband, a Catholic, and converted to Catholicism, that was one of the draws…that Catholicism was into sharing and caring.

It appears that the GOP is Protestant (of a specifically American variety that is) in mentality, which would make sense given US history *). Catholics in the US let themselves be protestantized by their surroundings, as also witnessed by a good number of them adopting the stance of Young-Earth creationism (a quite American phenomenon), based on a Bible literalism alien to the Catholic Church.

---

*) it appears that a number of Protestants believe that wealth is a ‘blessing from God’. That would explain the GOP obsession with privileges and tax-cuts for the rich.

 

[Crossbones]

Yes, I guess in quite a few cases it goes as follows:

1. Catholic thinks that s/he allegedly has no choice but to vote GOP because of the pro-life issue.
2. Catholic then needs to justify being pro-GOP by rationalizing away all the atrocities of party ideology that go counter Catholic social teaching.
3. Catholic adopts the GOP ‘conservative’ stance warts and all. ‘Prudential judgment’ and ‘subsidiarity principle’ then form a convenient excuse for justifying social hard-heartedness.

I was struck by the following post earlier in the thread by Lynnvinc (emphasis added):

It appears that the GOP is Protestant (of a specifically American variety that is) in mentality, which would make sense given US history *). Catholics in the US let themselves be protestantized by their surroundings, as also witnessed by a good number of them adopting the stance of Young-Earth creationism (a quite American phenomenon), based on a Bible literalism alien to the Catholic Church.

---

*) it appears that a number of Protestants believe that wealth is a ‘blessing from God’. That would explain the GOP obsession with privileges and tax-cuts for the rich.

There probably is something to that. American Catholics are constantly exposed to the ideas of Protestantism and some of the dominant ideas of the last 30 years have been ‘The Prosperity Gospel’, where God will provide material gifts to His followers in this lifetime. It’s possible that some have trouble distinguishing these heretical ideas from the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I also wonder how much of the current problem is due to the rock star status that some bishops enjoy as a result of being political (not religious) leaders. I read about how Archbishop Dolan was introduced in a talk given in Milwaukee and he was loudly applauded for going head to head with President Obama (see jsonline.com/news/religion/cardinal-dolan-calls-on-milwaukee-catholic-to-embrace-church-despite-flaws-b9991996z1-222619831.html). It seems like the audience was less there for the religious message, but to see the man that fights the President they despise. That’ll make you popular with one type of Catholic, but it hurts the ability to have messages outside those that fit the GOP narrative.

 

[Path_Finder]

There probably is something to that. American Catholics are constantly exposed to the ideas of Protestantism and some of the dominant ideas of the last 30 years have been ‘The Prosperity Gospel’, where God will provide material gifts to His followers in this lifetime. It’s possible that some have trouble distinguishing these heretical ideas from the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I also wonder how much of the current problem is due to the rock star status that some bishops enjoy as a result of being political (not religious) leaders. I read about how Archbishop Dolan was introduced in a talk given in Milwaukee and he was loudly applauded for going head to head with President Obama (see jsonline.com/news/religion/cardinal-dolan-calls-on-milwaukee-catholic-to-embrace-church-despite-flaws-b9991996z1-222619831.html). It seems like the audience was less there for the religious message, but to see the man that fights the President they despise. That’ll make you popular with one type of Catholic, but it hurts the ability to have messages outside those that fit the GOP narrative.

This is certainly a mixed bag as to your assertion that Cardinal Dolan would sway favoritism with GOP voters. Your article is from 2013 however, let’s not forget, in 2014, Cardinal Dolan went along with the idea of allowing gays to march in the St. Patrick Parade.

Anti-catholic polemicist Andrew Sullivan and some of the regular suspects (like Michael O’Loughlin at America magazine) had barely finished condemning Cardinal Dolan for being, in their view, overtly partisan and pro-GOP by offering to say a blessing at the GOP convention when the news came out that Cardinal Dolan had extended the exact same offer to President Obama and the DNC.

Only difference is President Obama turned Cardinal Dolan down.

catholicvote.org/liberal-catholics-condemn-cardinal-dolan-for-being-turned-away-by-the-democrats/comment-page-1/

So your statement is overly broad without more specificity as to what you are saying.

Oh, and what the Blaze story reported Liberals saying in regards to the Cardinal made me think twice about posting it here.

Just in the name of fairness.

 

[pnewton]

Re-reading the article, I see technically he did not mention conservatives, but they are the ones who are predominately pro-life.

Re-reading, and being technical is a good practice when dealing with Catholic leaders, particularly Jesuits. Extrapolating positions, is not.

 

[powerofk]

Yes, I guess in quite a few cases it goes as follows:

1. Catholic thinks that s/he allegedly has no choice but to vote GOP because of the pro-life issue.
2. Catholic then needs to justify being pro-GOP by rationalizing away all the atrocities of party ideology that go counter Catholic social teaching.
3. Catholic adopts the GOP ‘conservative’ stance warts and all. ‘Prudential judgment’ and ‘subsidiarity principle’ then form a convenient excuse for justifying social hard-heartedness.

That sounds just about correct. Actually, the problem is that concerning the “non-negotiables” (abortion, gay “marriage”, embryonic stem-cell research, human cloning, euthanasia), the GOP stance is, generally the same as the Catholic Church’s (none of the above are to be tolerated), while the Dem stance is, generally, the opposite of the Church’s stance (thinking all of the above are basic human “rights”). It’s sad, really, because that’s pretty much the ONLY stances that the GOP and Catholic Churrch have in common with each other. Church teaching does not support a hard-line on immigration, for example, nor does it support a “let the poor fend for themselves” policy (which, though, not an official GOP position, seems to be a position held by some in the party). It also does not support burying one’s head in the sand regarding science, whether it be global warming or evolution.

 

[pnewton]

I trust then that all those who support the Pope’s position have increased their personal charitable contributions to alleviate poverty, homelessness, sickness, and so forth?

Isn’t that what all Catholics are called to do, according to our needs? Charity is not a political virtue, but a theological virtue. I would hope that all here on both sides of the aisle politically will evaluate their blessings and help others accordingly.

 

[Crossbones]

This is certainly a mixed bag as to your assertion that Cardinal Dolan would sway favoritism with GOP voters. Your article is from 2013 however, let’s not forget, in 2014, Cardinal Dolan went along with the idea of allowing gays to march in the St. Patrick Parade.

catholicvote.org/liberal-catholics-condemn-cardinal-dolan-for-being-turned-away-by-the-democrats/comment-page-1/

So your statement is overly broad without more specificity as to what you are saying.

Oh, and what the Blaze story reported Liberals saying in regards to the Cardinal made me think twice about posting it here.

Just in the name of fairness.

Oh, I’m not being critical of Archbishop Dolan. I just find it interesting that they would make a big point of saying he’s the guy that goes “head to head” with President Obama in the introduction to loud applause. I highly doubt that he would approve of that introduction personally. I am making a point about his audience that day and how that kind of audience may not be there to see a religious leader (in their eyes) but rather a political leader (again, in their eyes).

 

[pnewton]

It is problematic for the pope to be on a Al Gore global warming crusade when this issue is about propaganda , politics , misinformation and so forth -

Praying the pope somehow understands this

Hail Mary …

You keep mentioning Al Gore. Can you show where the Holy Father says that he is a follower, student or crusader for Al Gore or are you just throwing that name out to offend and imply that the Holy Father is some how not as enlightened as, say, you. You have multiple times stated you are “praying” for the pope to, I don’t know, agree with you, I guess.

How do you feel when people say they are praying for you to change to meet their needs or their politics? Would you take that as a sincere prayer, as in “I am praying that Ken Miller will soften his heart to the message of the Holy Father.” If that would be offensive to you, then according to the Golden Rule, you need to cease this sort of statement about others. Do not forget, there are a lot of Catholics here who love this man as a true member of our family, our true holy father.