How do you ‘define’ torture. Water boarding, sexual humiliation, white noise, inflicting physical pain under conditions controlled by the captor, stress positions, threats to family, sleep deprivation et al. I ‘define’ all that as torture. If ever anything was clear I think it’s thatHowever we are not bound to accept your definition of torture or unjust wars. I don’t recall republicans supporting either.
The fact that the Bush administration allowed waterboarding does not make conservative Catholics into “cafeteria” Catholics. When you find prominent Catholics speaking out in favor of torture be sure to let us know, until then what is the argument that they in fact support it? As for unjust wars you need to at least recognize that the decision to go to war is the responsibility of the government and neither the church nor any pope decreed the Iraq war or any other incursion to be unjust. *These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine. *Torture and unjust wars are in direct opposition to Church teaching.
The pope’s personal opinion about global warming carries little weight inasmuch as it is a scientific and not a moral question. Regarding his comments on economics, you misunderstand what they were. They were not in fact in opposition to anything the GOP supports.The Pope has talked/written about global warming and economic policies that are in direct opposition to the GOP positions on the matter.
Can you name one specific policy the GOP supports that is contrary to church doctrine? Just to be clear, there is no doctrine on the Iraq war, there is no doctrine on global warming, there is no doctrine on what our immigration laws ought to be, and there is no GOP position in favor of torture.So, perhaps you shouldn’t find the choice that simple and are choosing to ignore how some GOP policies are in direct opposition to the Church.
I believe you will find much disagreement that waterboarding and sleep deprivation are torture. No candidate I know of supports the others.How do you ‘define’ torture. Water boarding, sexual humiliation, white noise, inflicting physical pain under conditions controlled by the captor, stress positions, threats to family, sleep deprivation et al. I ‘define’ all that as torture. If ever anything was clear I think it’s that
Yes, I have noticed this change in you over time.If you followed my postings, I used to give the Democrats some benefit of the doubt, not because I agreed with their position but because I hoped they would change. I became convinced that through media like MSNBC and their enthusiastic embrace of this Pope, that that wasn’t going to happen in my lifetime.
What is it then a new Olympic sport? How totally absurdI believe you will find much disagreement that waterboarding and sleep deprivation are torture. No candidate I know of supports the others.
Well fortunately we haven’t had a candidate or political party that supports unjust wars or torture so it isnt an issue when we go to vote. Abortion, homosexual marriage and forcing Catholics to pay for contraception is. One party supports this-the other opposes it. That is the wedge-a wedge that separates the Democrat Party from the Church. No such wedge exists between the GOP and the Church.What is it then a new Olympic sport? How totally absurd
Nor I of yours, which is something that gets forgotten around here quite frequently.However we are not bound to accept your definition of torture or unjust wars. I don’t recall republicans supporting either.
I don’t believe either Bush or Chaney are running for office and both the Iraq and Afghani wars are over. Non-issues. The only wedge is between the Democrat party full embrace of the Culture of Death and our Church.Nor I of yours, which is something that gets forgotten around here quite frequently.
The Republicans most certainly supported the Iraq War, which I consider an unjust war,. ‘Enhanced interrogation techniques,’ which I consider torture, took place under a Republican Presidential administration and you can hardly get Vice President Cheney off the news in his support for these techniques. So, if you don’t think the Republicans support either, you must be ignoring the overwhelming evidence all around you, which also seems to happen quite frequently when discussing Republican political views.
Is accepting illegal immigration a teaching? I know that people have the right to leave a country but is there any teaching that they have the right to come to the U.S. illegally?Yes, I agree. Unfortunately there are many very complex issues that face us at this point in time, no matter who you are and what you believe. People are different and they have different priorities; in a free society you will never change that; people will make different choices. I personally try my darnedest to align myself with the Church’s teaching. I admit when I am going against a teaching, not in pride or willfulness, but shame. (Immigration is my biggest stumbling block.) Still, it happens. My point is it will happen either way - liberal or conservative. Nobody is perfect.
What you’ll find around here is that everyone will agree that torture is wrong and an intrinsic evil. You can’t argue that. But there is this loophole, where some will argue that what you describe above is not torture. Now, if you probe the people who makes this claim, you may come to different conclusions about their sincerity when they use this loophole.How do you ‘define’ torture. Water boarding, sexual humiliation, white noise, inflicting physical pain under conditions controlled by the captor, stress positions, threats to family, sleep deprivation et al. I ‘define’ all that as torture. If ever anything was clear I think it’s that
Of course not. Because the past is never an indicator of what might happen in the future and we waste our time when we teach children history in school.I don’t believe either Bush or Chaney are running for office and both the Iraq and Afghani wars are over. Non-issues. The only wedge is between the Democrat party full embrace of the Culture of Death and our Church.
Catholic Church’s Position On Immigration ReformIs accepting illegal immigration a teaching? I know that people have the right to leave a country but is there any teaching that they have the right to come to the U.S. illegally?
Not to mention that Hillary probably will be on the next ticket, and she voiced support for EIT’s at the time.I don’t believe either Bush or Chaney are running for office and both the Iraq and Afghani wars are over. Non-issues. The only wedge is between the Democrat party full embrace of the Culture of Death and our Church.
cena, I am with you on that. I cannot for the life of me understand the USCCB’s support of this latest immigration bill from Obama. I guess what the USCCB does is not a “teaching” per se but I don’t think it is a good idea to make a habit of rejecting their views and then trying to pass yourself off as a good dutiful Catholic. I feel that I am wrong from the Christian standpoint on this issue.Is accepting illegal immigration a teaching? I know that people have the right to leave a country but is there any teaching that they have the right to come to the U.S. illegally?
Tell that to the many Catholics who believe that Pope Francis’s mere critique of capitalism (and that’s all it was - a critique) is akin to professing himself a Communist.I don’t believe either Bush or Chaney are running for office and both the Iraq and Afghani wars are over. Non-issues. The only wedge is between the Democrat party full embrace of the Culture of Death and our Church.
Pardon my late reply, as I am not on the forum as much as some others. I was commenting on the concept of non-negotiable issues. To answer your question, I proved that the “Voting Guide For Serious Catholics” is not endorsed by the USCCB, nor are the conclusions endorsed by the USCCB.What are you trying to prove here?
Prudential Judgement sounds like just what gay people could use to justify some of their behaviour. What an ‘Alice in Wonderland’ proposition that isWhat you’ll find around here is that everyone will agree that torture is wrong and an intrinsic evil. You can’t argue that. But there is this loophole, where some will argue that what you describe above is not torture. Now, if you probe the people who makes this claim, you may come to different conclusions about their sincerity when they use this loophole.
Some probably do believe that they are correctly using prudential judgement, which is a certain freedom that the Church allows for an individual to use his/her conscience to decide whether or not it is truly evil, that this is not torture. On the other hand, you may find that many use it as a ‘get out of jail free’ card, where they likely know in their hearts it is evil, but refuses to acknowledge because it undermines their political beliefs. These are often the same people that speak with an absolutism that make you wonder if they have a well-formed conscience and a sound mind and are capable of using prudential judgement.
Oh, I don’t think it’s that. It serves a very definite purpose, that Catholics in good faith can disagree on certain issues like the necessity for a particular war, but it is easy to see how it can be abused.Prudential Judgement sounds like just what gay people could use to justify some of their behaviour. What an ‘Alice in Wonderland’ proposition that is
Or women on contraception. Agreed, we’re headed down the rabbit hole.Prudential Judgement sounds like just what gay people could use to justify some of their behaviour. What an ‘Alice in Wonderland’ proposition that is
I Have seen conservaTives who support torture for terrorists like water boarding.There is no reason to believe that conservative Catholics endorse torture; this is a false charge. What you will get are debates about what constitutes torture. You might get agreement about waterboarding, probably not so much about sleep deprivation. Yours is a valid question, just not the “other than” part.
Ender