Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

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I Have seen conservaTives who support torture for terrorists like water boarding.
It seems to be forcing an issue, quite a few more innocents have died through drone attacks under Obama than under Bush but I’m not about to subscribe to the theory that liberals believe innocents should be killed this way.

And the Government has pulled back on those attacks in what was the “good war”, Afghanistan.
 
I wouldn’t like to think Rumsfeld and Bush knew nothing about reduction and water boarding but …
I disagree with torture but someone like Thomas Merton would point out that you aren’t more righteous using a drone while seated at a computer hundreds of miles away. The worst torture on earth is abortion and it happens daily which is more often than torture of captured enemy combatants.
 
Honest question. I agree that abortion is murder of innocent life and I oppose it. My question is this: why don’t we focus more on the guilt of the person committing abortion? Why do we assume this collective guilt, on a par with the holocaust? (And again I don’t deny that this is a holocaust. I blame the perpetrators of the holocaust for the holocaust.) Murder is illegal. When someone commits a murder, I blame it on them. I don’t feel responsible. I don’t feel responsible when someone has an abortion. I think a woman decided to terminate the life of her child. She and the father will deal with that in terms of guilt and forgiveness, etc. for the rest of their lives. (I know people who’ve had abortions.) Am I making sense? I really want to know; am not being combative at all.
 
Honest question. I agree that abortion is murder of innocent life and I oppose it. My question is this: why don’t we focus more on the guilt of the person committing abortion? Why do we assume this collective guilt, on a par with the holocaust? (And again I don’t deny that this is a holocaust. I blame the perpetrators of the holocaust for the holocaust.) Murder is illegal. When someone commits a murder, I blame it on them. I don’t feel responsible. I don’t feel responsible when someone has an abortion. I think a woman decided to terminate the life of her child. She and the father will deal with that in terms of guilt and forgiveness, etc. for the rest of their lives. (I know people who’ve had abortions.) Am I making sense? I really want to know; am not being combative at all.
Because the mother has value and can be forgiven and no woman makes the decision cavalierly. A lot of women were forced into getting an abortion and some were lied to or lied to themselves about what actually happened and they have tremendous guilt and they hate themselves. Fathers often share this guilt. We should support post-abortive women and men. We say it is collective because we all know or should know it is wrong and if all 67 million American Catholics fought for its removal and educated the public it would have been gone along time ago. How many people do you know who pass our Pro-Life literature, go to rallies, pray outside abortion clinics,don’t take contaception, don’t give it to their teenager daughters and call their representatives and tell them to create legislation to get rid of it? Serious how many Catholics have even read Humane Vitae?
 
Honest question. I agree that abortion is murder of innocent life and I oppose it. My question is this: why don’t we focus more on the guilt of the person committing abortion? Why do we assume this collective guilt, on a par with the holocaust? (And again I don’t deny that this is a holocaust. I blame the perpetrators of the holocaust for the holocaust.) Murder is illegal. When someone commits a murder, I blame it on them. I don’t feel responsible. I don’t feel responsible when someone has an abortion. I think a woman decided to terminate the life of her child. She and the father will deal with that in terms of guilt and forgiveness, etc. for the rest of their lives. (I know people who’ve had abortions.) Am I making sense? I really want to know; am not being combative at all.
I’d wager one big reason is because most women who have abortions are typically very vulnerable and scared to the point they feel they have no other choice. I’m not defending their actions at all, but I do have a lot of compassion for them. On the other hand, people who advocate on behalf of Planned Parenthood, etc., have all the time and resources they need to gain a better understanding of the evil of abortion.
 
I’d wager one big reason is because most women who have abortions are typically very vulnerable and scared to the point they feel they have no other choice. I’m not defending their actions at all, but I do have a lot of compassion for them. On the other hand, people who advocate on behalf of Planned Parenthood, etc., have all the time and resources they need to gain a better understanding of the evil of abortion.
Well, I hope you are right to paint them so sympathetically. And of course I view them as I would any other sinner in my heart. But I am not so sure that many of them are not just this side of those who opt for Plan B contraception or, these days, at least in Europe, consider euthanasia for the ill and elderly. In the end, there has to be personal responsibility for this as with any other sin.
 
Well, I hope you are right to paint them so sympathetically. And of course I view them as I would any other sinner in my heart. But I am not so sure that many of them are not just this side of those who opt for Plan B contraception or, these days, at least in Europe, consider euthanasia for the ill and elderly. In the end, there has to be personal responsibility for this as with any other sin.
True, I am generalizing, and in their favor. But I don’t see how one could make such a decision without extreme pressure, unless one is a sociopath.
 
True, I am generalizing, and in their favor. But I don’t see how one could make such a decision without extreme pressure, unless one is a sociopath.
I agree; I don’t know how they can go through with it. I just feel like so many make bad decisions - abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage/adoption, legalized marijuana, etc. - that do so much harm in our culture. This IS the argument for the right, whether you like it or not.:rolleyes: I do vote Democrat and Republican at different times; never very good at toeing either party line in its entirety though (that could be a good thing).
 
Of course not. Because the past is never an indicator of what might happen in the future and we waste our time when we teach children history in school.
The democrat party supports intrinsic evils in the present.
 
The democrat party supports intrinsic evils in the present.
Because the Republican party is not in charge. Hard to be evil on the sidelines.

You know, if the Republicans would come out and say, gee, that was ridiculous and stop defending the indefensible, then I might be inclined to believe that the situation wouldn’t repeat itself. But I’m not seeing that.
 
Because the Republican party is not in charge. Hard to be evil on the sidelines.

You know, if the Republicans would come out and say, gee, that was ridiculous and stop defending the indefensible, then I might be inclined to believe that the situation wouldn’t repeat itself. But I’m not seeing that.
There is nothing in their platform that is contrary to Church teaching.That is not true for the Democrat Party.
 
I agree; I don’t know how they can go through with it. I just feel like so many make bad decisions - abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage/adoption, legalized marijuana, etc. - that do so much harm in our culture. This IS the argument for the right, whether you like it or not.:rolleyes: I do vote Democrat and Republican at different times; never very good at toeing either party line in its entirety though (that could be a good thing).
It’s a very good thing, IMO. 👍
 
We don’t seem to be able to discern what the Papacy Vs Republican Party actually are. I expect that water boarding and illegal war are among the issues. That added to naked regime change, differences over global warming, the nature and purpose of capitalism might start the discussion
Water boarding and illegal war are not the issues, or if they are they have not been reported to be the issues.
This thread is the first I heard about them being the issues.
Republican party is against illegal war just as much as any party btw. Who isn’t against illegal wars and torture? The devil is in the definition.

The biggest wedge issue is Pope Francis reported to be tiring over issues such as abortion and marriage, and saying that these are bad things for Catholics to focus upon.
Criticisms of capitalism is a wedge issue, inasmuch as their is not a corresponding criticism of socialism is a wedge issue. Many GOP members is suspicious that Francis is anti-capitalist, which is to say anti-free enterprise, for GOP is a free enterprise party more than a capitalist one.

Global warming is not so much a wedge issue, as long as there is no corresponding criticism of the free market and greed as the main culprits. But if the solution for Francis is big government intervention in the field of environment, and that seems be the way that Francis is swinging, then GOP is very suspicious. The evangelical base of the GOP even goes as far as to see this as a swing to the religion of Enviornmentalism, and the worship of the idol Gaea.

Those are the wedge issues. Torture and illegal war are merely diversions. Otherwise, the wedge issue would be between the pope and the Obama and European regimes and their illegal war in Libya, and the choice that Obama made to drone terrorists rather than capture them and question them.
But if Francis believes in droning over capture and question, then I would imagine that he is morally compromised himself.

He can join the crowd in that respect. There are no easy moral answers in the situation we are in today in our war against terror.
 
Well, I hope you are right to paint them so sympathetically. And of course I view them as I would any other sinner in my heart. But I am not so sure that many of them are not just this side of those who opt for Plan B contraception or, these days, at least in Europe, consider euthanasia for the ill and elderly. In the end, there has to be personal responsibility for this as with any other sin.
I have great respect for the work of those involved with Project Rachel – the stories I hear from those working with women who have had abortions reveal tremendous fear, pain, and shame. Thank God for spiritual leaders like Saint Pope JPII:
Pope John Paul II’s “special word to women who have had an abortion” in Evangelium Vitae (n.99) has been a great consolation to many women—Catholics and non-Catholics alike. Here is what he said:
“I would like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you His forgiveness and His peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child who is now living in the Lord.” (5)
Rather than experiencing the Catholic Church as judging them harshly or condemning them, several women have told me that they chose to become Catholic in order to experience the Sacrament of Confession, and to hear the priest say, “In the name of Jesus Christ I absolve you from your sins.”
 
Platforms are pretty useless in determining how a party is going to govern.
Not really. Abortion and a war against the ‘War on Women’ was very much in the Democratic platform, and they have done all things possible to advance that agenda at every turn.
 
Not really. Abortion and a war against the ‘War on Women’ was very much in the Democratic platform, and they have done all things possible to advance that agenda at every turn.
Have you read a platform? It contains all sorts of stuff that they won’t do and doesn’t contain all sorts of stuff that they do do. The last Republican platform called for 4 Constitutional Amendments.
 
Because the Republican party is not in charge. Hard to be evil on the sidelines.

You know, if the Republicans would come out and say, gee, that was ridiculous and stop defending the indefensible, then I might be inclined to believe that the situation wouldn’t repeat itself. But I’m not seeing that.
Actually the Republicans now have control of the Senate and House. It may be argued of the SCOTUS as well. They have full control of 30 states, whereas the Democrats only 9. They need to make a move on those Constitutional Amendments IMO.
 
Water boarding and illegal war are not the issues, or if they are they have not been reported to be the issues.
This thread is the first I heard about them being the issues.
Republican party is against illegal war just as much as any party btw. Who isn’t against illegal wars and torture? The devil is in the definition.

The biggest wedge issue is Pope Francis reported to be tiring over issues such as abortion and marriage, and saying that these are bad things for Catholics to focus upon.
Criticisms of capitalism is a wedge issue, inasmuch as their is not a corresponding criticism of socialism is a wedge issue. Many GOP members is suspicious that Francis is anti-capitalist, which is to say anti-free enterprise, for GOP is a free enterprise party more than a capitalist one.

Global warming is not so much a wedge issue, as long as there is no corresponding criticism of the free market and greed as the main culprits. But if the solution for Francis is big government intervention in the field of environment, and that seems be the way that Francis is swinging, then GOP is very suspicious. The evangelical base of the GOP even goes as far as to see this as a swing to the religion of Enviornmentalism, and the worship of the idol Gaea.

Those are the wedge issues. Torture and illegal war are merely diversions. Otherwise, the wedge issue would be between the pope and the Obama and European regimes and their illegal war in Libya, and the choice that Obama made to drone terrorists rather than capture them and question them.
But if Francis believes in droning over capture and question, then I would imagine that he is morally compromised himself.

He can join the crowd in that respect. There are no easy moral answers in the situation we are in today in our war against terror.
You are expecting the Pope to denounce both capitalism and socialism when he may not be of the opinion that socialism is bad. Americans on the right have a very fixed (and mostly incorrect) view of socialism that is not shared in Europe, Australia, South America or parts of Africa. State ownership of utilities, transport networks and the means of production works well on other parts of this planet. State delivery of heath care free at the point of treatment for everyone 24/7 in the form of the British National Health Seevice was resisted by conservatives and the medical profession. But is so loved that even the most swivel eyed Thatherite dare not suggest it is ended. There is a much bigger picture
 
Waiting 6 weeks for an appointment over a mild medical problem, people really love the NHS and glad people on the left tell us they love it.
 
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