Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

[FollowChrist34]

I actually don’t have a problem at all with my tax rate. I think it is fair. I do support a number of government programs and believe in a progressive income tax. You will always have the poor and they will need some form of public assistance, as will the elderly, unemployed, etc. I agree these programs can be subject to abuse and/or become dysfunctional; it is incumbent on those with government authority to manage social programs fairly and effectively. (Reread my CCC Social Justice this morning; I think we’re good here, spot on in fact.)

 

[ucfengr]

I believe I said I’m happy that the state takes on the role of distributing my wealth to the poor. I can quibble about how the job gets done but the state is far more effective at managing distribution than I would be.

Do you think the state does a good job of using your money to take care of the poor? If you do, I can certainly understand you being happy to delegate your responsibility to the state, but if you don’t how can you say that they are more effective at managing distribution than you are? In this case, I would think effectiveness is measured by the results of the state’s efforts to help the poor rather then their effectiveness at separating you from your money.

 

[gracepoole]

Do you think the state does a good job of using your money to take care of the poor? If you do, I can certainly understand you being happy to delegate your responsibility to the state, but if you don’t how can you say that they are more effective at managing distribution than you are? In this case, I would think effectiveness is measured by the results of the state’s efforts to help the poor rather then their effectiveness at separating you from your money.

I’m not even fully aware of everyone in my community who needs assistance. This isn’t caused by lack of due diligence (at least I don’t think it is) but rather the fact that I don’t encounter everyone in need. Practically speaking, I couldn’t possibly manage the task of distribution on my own.

 

[gracepoole]

I actually don’t have a problem at all with my tax rate. I think it is fair. I do support a number of government programs and believe in a progressive income tax. You will always have the poor and they will need some form of public assistance, as will the elderly, unemployed, etc. I agree these programs can be subject to abuse and/or become dysfunctional; it is incumbent on those with government authority to manage social programs fairly and effectively. (Reread my CCC Social Justice this morning; I think we’re good here, spot on in fact.)

Well said, FollowChrist.

 

[estesbob]

I believe I said I’m happy that the state takes on the role of distributing my wealth to the poor. I can quibble about how the job gets done but the state is far more effective at managing distribution than I would be.

We can not delegate our personal responsibility to help the poor and needy to the State

 

[stinkcat_14]

We can not delegate our personal responsibility to help the poor and needy to the State

Are you suggesting that the Church teaches that welfare programs like Social Security and Medicare are immoral and violate Church teaching?

 

[gracepoole]

We can not delegate our personal responsibility to help the poor and needy to the State

Not exclusively and I don’t. I make personal contributions, as well. But I rely on Catholic charities to help me distribute my money to areas of the world where, again, I’m unaware of the need but trust it exists. Likewise, I rely on the state to assist me with distributing my money to those in need domestically.

 

[estesbob]

Are you suggesting that the Church teaches that welfare programs like Social Security and Medicare are immoral and violate Church teaching?

No. Just that supporting these programs does not fulfill ones** personal** responsibility to help the poor and needy.

 

[stinkcat_14]

No. Just that supporting these programs does not fulfill ones** personal** responsibility to help the poor and needy.

Did the poster claim they did?

 

[estesbob]

Not exclusively and I don’t. I make personal contributions, as well. But I rely on Catholic charities to help me distribute my money to areas of the world where, again, I’m unaware of the need but trust it exists. Likewise, I rely on the state to assist me with distributing my money to those in need domestically.

The Govt is incapable of Charity and paying taxes or supporting Govt Social programs in no way fulfils our personal responsibility to help the poor and needy nor can you fulfill this responsibility by voting for someone who promises to take other peoples money an do t for us.

 

[gracepoole]

The Govt is incapable of Charity and paying taxes or supporting Govt Social programs in no way fulfils our personal responsibility to help the poor and needy nor can you fulfill this responsibility by voting for someone who promises to take other peoples money an do t for us.

I’ve already said that I make private charitable contributions. My point is that if we rely solely on people doing this sort of thing, there will be plenty who will go without assistance.

 

[SWolf]

Are you suggesting that the Church teaches that welfare programs like Social Security and Medicare are immoral and violate Church teaching?

I would argue they are immoral. They do not, however, violate Church teaching.

 

[Path_Finder]

Back in the great depression, soup kitchens were set up, things were bad, often people also took care of their own, Swedish soup kitchen to take care of the Swedes and probably anyone else in the community as well.

One of the great Saints of Charity is St. Vincent De Paul. He fed and cared for thousands in Paris.

I am sure there is a role for government in helping the poor but I would not underestimate what private charity can do as well, what the Church can do.

Especially, since as a whole, the Government seems to act as an antithesis of Christian values. That’s not helpful and government programs can have waste though many of the workers are also very earnest as are many of the recipients.

 

[stinkcat_14]

The Govt is incapable of Charity and paying taxes or supporting Govt Social programs in no way fulfils our personal responsibility to help the poor and needy nor can you fulfill this responsibility by voting for someone who promises to take other peoples money an do t for us.

I am not sure anyone has claimed otherwise, so I am not sure what your point is?

 

[FollowChrist34]

Back in the great depression, soup kitchens were set up, things were bad, often people also took care of their own, Swedish soup kitchen to take care of the Swedes and probably anyone else in the community as well.

One of the great Saints of Charity is St. Vincent De Paul. He fed and cared for thousands in Paris.

I am sure there is a role for government in helping the poor but I would not underestimate what private charity can do as well, what the Church can do.

Especially, since as a whole, the Government seems to act as an antithesis of Christian values. That’s not helpful and government programs can have waste though many of the workers are also very earnest as are many of the recipients.

I do believe the State has a role in providing programs such as Medicare, Social Security and unemployment benefits in support of the common good. I don’t think the unemployed and elderly should have to rely solely on private charity and/or Church charities. Ideally, we have all of these support systems available. I also think the same principles of social justice apply to wealthier nations with respect to poorer ones; Christian commitment to the common good doesn’t stop at domestic material inequality, or just material inequality, many, many issues come under this umbrella - social poverty/religious liberty, economic, social or moral exploitation, ensuring reasonable living conditions for the less advantaged; environmental responsibility; care for migrants and refugees.

 

[pnewton]

That’s Moral Relativism.

Unless voting for Romney is an absolute moral truth, it is not moral relativism. You use the word as an insult, not an argument.

 

[zz912]

I do believe the State has a role in providing programs such as Medicare, Social Security and unemployment benefits in support of the common good. I don’t think the unemployed and elderly should have to rely solely on private charity and/or Church charities. Ideally, we have all of these support systems available. I also think the same principles of social justice apply to wealthier nations with respect to poorer ones; Christian commitment to the common good doesn’t stop at domestic material inequality, or just material inequality, many, many issues come under this umbrella - social poverty/religious liberty, economic, social or moral exploitation, ensuring reasonable living conditions for the less advantaged; environmental responsibility; care for migrants and refugees.

Here’s the problem with that. We’re broke and $18 TRILLION in debt. And Medicare and Social Security are only going to get worse. They will soon swallow almost the entire budget of the US.

At what point does fiscal responsibility become a Christian principle?

 

[ucfengr]

I’m not even fully aware of everyone in my community who needs assistance. This isn’t caused by lack of due diligence (at least I don’t think it is) but rather the fact that I don’t encounter everyone in need. Practically speaking, I couldn’t possibly manage the task of distribution on my own.

That doesn’t really answer my question. Do you think the government does a good job providing for those in need? If not, if not, you shouldn’t be happy to delegate your responsibility to those in need to them. Personally, I think you could do a lot more than you think if you focus on those in need locally and allow others to focus on their own localities. Jesus fed the poor in his own community, he didn’t lobby Rome to try to take care of everybody in the Roman Empire who was in need. I think he expected us to do likewise. “Think Globally, Act Locally”, I think was bad advice. We’d accomplish a lot more if we “Thought locally and acted locally”, and expected everyone else to do likewise.

 

[Tigg]

What if I don’t feel coerced and instead am happy the state takes on the responsibility of sharing my wealth with the poor?

So you believe the state (I could add the adjective* corrupt*) should be the arbiter of the distribution of my personal property even though my Church upholds my right to that which has been earned through the fruits of my own labor. The 7th commandment comes to mind…

 

[gracepoole]

If you’re happy with the job the government is doing for the poor, you must not like the poor very much.

I believe I said I’m happy that the state takes on the role of distributing my wealth to the poor. I can quibble about how the job gets done but the state is far more effective at managing distribution than I would be.

Do you think the state does a good job of using your money to take care of the poor?

I’m not even fully aware of everyone in my community who needs assistance. This isn’t caused by lack of due diligence (at least I don’t think it is) but rather the fact that I don’t encounter everyone in need. Practically speaking, I couldn’t possibly manage the task of distribution on my own.

That doesn’t really answer my question. Do you think the government does a good job providing for those in need? If not, if not, you shouldn’t be happy to delegate your responsibility to those in need to them. Personally, I think you could do a lot more than you think if you focus on those in need locally and allow others to focus on their own localities. Jesus fed the poor in his own community, he didn’t lobby Rome to try to take care of everybody in the Roman Empire who was in need. I think he expected us to do likewise. “Think Globally, Act Locally”, I think was bad advice. We’d accomplish a lot more if we “Thought locally and acted locally”, and expected everyone else to do likewise.

I did in fact answer your question (see the bolded section above) though I’m genuinely sorry if my response isn’t satisfactory. No, I don’t think the state always manages distribution well (of course, many private charities struggle with the same problem so I don’t see a panacea anywhere). But the number of successful engagements between the state and those in need is significant. As I said (and I really can’t overstate this), you and I are unaware of much need within our own communities. No matter how savvy we are to the needs of those around us, we’re individuals and therefore have an isolated, limited perspective. Time and time again, we find evidence that when charged with caring for one another, people fail to do so because, in part, they’re ignorant of the need. Furthermore, as a Christian and Catholic, I would find it personally abhorrent and immoral to focus solely on the local to the exclusion of the global. I’m doubtful that you meant to advocate for such an approach but I think it’s important to remember that the state also provides desperately needed humanitarian aid to non-Americans.