Pope Francis faces church divided over doctrine, global poll of Catholics finds

[HCTC]

In my humble opinion, we have recently witnessed compelling examples of Papal Infallibility: Pope Benedict’s courageous, somewhat shocking, retirement and Pope Francis’ focus on demonstrating how to speak to each other and treat each other with love.

 

[ProVobis]

In my humble opinion, we have recently witnessed compelling examples of Papal Infallibility: Pope Benedict’s courageous, somewhat shocking, retirement and Pope Francis’ focus on demonstrating how to speak to each other and treat each other with love.

I don’t think this is what is meant by Papal infallibility.

 

[FollowChrist34]

ZZ & Tigg, if the division in the Church is between those who know what Jesus meant when He said:
37 “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it:* You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

and those who really need to have the word “love” defined for them, then that division is far more serious than anyone imagines…

1 Corinthians

1 Though I command languages both human and angelic – if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing.

2 And though I have the power of prophecy, to penetrate all mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all the faith necessary to move mountains – if I am without love, I am nothing.

3 Though I should give away to the poor all that I possess, and even give up my body to be burned – if I am without love, it will do me no good whatever.

ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/US.php?id=9367

Great little article.

 

[Sy_Noe]

The fact that a large percentage of Catholics reject church teaching is totally irrelevant. We are not allowed to call them heretics, and regardless the number, they do not affect objective truth in any manner. But one does need to understand the nature of heresy as the teachings of Christ are inter-connected. Once one doctrine is rejected, how easy and logical in the mind of man to think his own “truth” is correct and reject other teachings on the basis of personal opinion.

And yet they were called heretics in post #85 and no one said a thing about you not being allowed to until you just did after Tomdstone quoted the poster of that post.

 

[zz912]

ZZ & Tigg, if the division in the Church is between those who know what Jesus meant when He said:
37 “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it:* You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

and those who really need to have the word “love” defined for them, then that division is far more serious than anyone imagines…

1 Corinthians

1 Though I command languages both human and angelic – if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing.

2 And though I have the power of prophecy, to penetrate all mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all the faith necessary to move mountains – if I am without love, I am nothing.

3 Though I should give away to the poor all that I possess, and even give up my body to be burned – if I am without love, it will do me no good whatever.

So please close the division and educate us who are not as wise as you, and tell us what live is.

 

[HCTC]

So please close the division and educate us who are not as wise as you, and tell us what live is.

Althogh it seems to me that you would like an answer to the effect that love is “X”, “Y”, and/or “Z”, I will answer you with an analogy. Love is a path that we choose to take, and this path diverges into many paths. Sometimes our chosen path is beautiful, and sometimes it is a steep struggle. But if we persevere along a path of love, it will take us to God because that is the joyful intention with which we began our journey. What is love? Look inside yourself, and tell me.

 

[rfournier103]

I found this this morning:

 

[tcjjmcf]

Althogh it seems to me that you would like an answer to the effect that love is “X”, “Y”, and/or “Z”, I will answer you with an analogy. Love is a path that we choose to take, and this path diverges into many paths. Sometimes our chosen path is beautiful, and sometimes it is a steep struggle. But if we persevere along a path of love, it will take us to God because that is the joyful intention with which we began our journey. What is love? Look inside yourself, and tell me.

Love is a very complicated experience and has many aspects. First there is the question of what attracts someone to another? This is based on the recognition of those values that you personally practice and hold dear being possessed and expressed by the individual to whom you are attracted. If that sharing of similar values are recognized and shared by both parties, then there will be a natural and compelling attraction. The resulting emotion generated by this mutual attraction is the beginning of love and this emotion is often experienced as romantic love. The novelty of romantic love diminishes over time but the shared values are what hold the relationship together. Of course, if one posits values to another and eventually discover they are not really part of the other person’s value system, then grave disappointment will follow.

This describes the intellectual and emotional aspects of love, but there is also the act of will. If we love God, we commit to honor Him and do His will, This will undoubtedly require great sacrifices to be faithful to that love. The marital union would be another case where the commitment to love, honor and obey (the will of God) and where love does not always result in happiness (although it can be joyful).

Fundamentally, Christians would share in the common recognition that every human being is created by God out of His divine love and obligates us to extend to that person a certain respect and dignity, even though their personal values may be diametrically opposed to our own. This is also not a happy experience but is a loving one.

It seems to me our purpose in life is to learn to love as Christ has loved us and not so much to avoid the the damnation of hell. The goal of the first is joy, the object of the second is relief.

 

[rcwitness]

I found this this morning:

…

 

[HCTC]

Althogh it seems to me that you would like an answer to the effect that love is “X”, “Y”, and/or “Z”, I will answer you with an analogy. Love is a path that we choose to take, and this path diverges into many paths. Sometimes our chosen path is beautiful, and sometimes it is a steep struggle. But if we persevere along a path of love, it will take us to God because that is the joyful intention with which we began our journey. What is love? Look inside yourself, and tell me.

All right… I was thinking about the path taken when you strive to treat everyone in your life in a loving way - even the family member who foments discord in the extended family; the friend to whom you extend yourself to feed and who in turn bites your hand; your sister who decides that she’s an atheist; as well as all the people who marginally intersect your life… The best way that I can describe it is to make available to everyone in your life some particle of the love and caring that you feel when you bring home your first born child. For me to find my way along this path requires some struggle and self-examination. But it seems to me that each of us confront a very personal landscape.

Proverbs 3:5-6 “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.”

 

[zz912]

Althogh it seems to me that you would like an answer to the effect that love is “X”, “Y”, and/or “Z”, I will answer you with an analogy. Love is a path that we choose to take, and this path diverges into many paths. Sometimes our chosen path is beautiful, and sometimes it is a steep struggle. But if we persevere along a path of love, it will take us to God because that is the joyful intention with which we began our journey. What is love? Look inside yourself, and tell me.

Looking inside ourselves is the opposite of the Christian view. I think your quote of Proverbs excellently contradicts this post of yours. And why is it so hard just to tell us?

 

[HCTC]

QUOTE=zz912;11712886]Looking inside ourselves is the opposite of the Christian view. I think your quote of Proverbs excellently contradicts this post of yours. And why is it so hard just to tell us?

In post #1 that I made on this site I made reference to Proverbs 3:5-6 because it is the basis of my personal relationship with God. I am going to grant that you are sincerely trying to understand what God’s love means to me, and I am truly sorry that I have not been able to share that with you in a meaningful way. God asks the same thing of all of us, but He asks it in different ways. We are required to examine our life and our heart, our mind, and our soul in order to discern what God requires of us. That is a life long process that is personal for each of us. One size does not fit all. I am a poor servant, but I have to trust that He appreciates my poor efforts or I would not be able to endure the despair.

So on this subject my final quote for you is not from the Bible. It was written by a gifted, but tortured soul.

“He prayeth best, who loveth best / All things both great and small; / For the dear God who loveth us, / He made and loveth all.”
The Rime of the Ancient Mariner by Samuel T. Coleridge

 

[twoshoes]

Love is a very complicated experience and has many aspects. First there is the question of what attracts someone to another? This is based on the recognition of those values that you personally practice and hold dear being possessed and expressed by the individual to whom you are attracted. If that sharing of similar values are recognized and shared by both parties, then there will be a natural and compelling attraction. The resulting emotion generated by this mutual attraction is the beginning of love and this emotion is often experienced as romantic love. The novelty of romantic love diminishes over time but the shared values are what hold the relationship together. Of course, if one posits values to another and eventually discover they are not really part of the other person’s value system, then grave disappointment will follow.

This describes the intellectual and emotional aspects of love, but there is also the act of will. If we love God, we commit to honor Him and do His will, This will undoubtedly require great sacrifices to be faithful to that love. The marital union would be another case where the commitment to love, honor and obey (the will of God) and where love does not always result in happiness (although it can be joyful).

Fundamentally, Christians would share in the common recognition that every human being is created by God out of His divine love and obligates us to extend to that person a certain respect and dignity, even though their personal values may be diametrically opposed to our own. This is also not a happy experience but is a loving one.

It seems to me our purpose in life is to learn to love as Christ has loved us and not so much to avoid the the damnation of hell. The goal of the first is joy, the object of the second is relief.

This may be a simplistic exercise to some but it is one I do when reading scripture, I look for the attributes shown in Jesus that I love. I have even written them down. The reasons to love Jesus are in every paragraph of the New testament, his love shines thru. When you deeply love Jesus and do not want to disappoint him we do everything possible to stay in a state of grace. Our differences with the Church disappear, and only become a distraction.

 

[twoshoes]

and what is love? A sentiment? A feeling based upon our particular emotion at the time? Lord, spare me my emotions and prompt me to do acts of charity based upon sound and right judgment. Do not let me base any decision upon the capricious nature of feelings. How unwise to practice this kind of false charity - it is “religion” posing as an imposter.

In Matt:19: 14 Jesus said, Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them: for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. I say love as an emotion is a very good thing, it drives us to please God and keeps us wanting to be with him in heaven. I have found at times my logic gets me into trouble, but the love of Jesus and the wisdom of the Holy Spirit keeps me on the right path. Love as a child, emotionally. Is there any love more deeply FELT than the love of a child. It’s unconditional.

 

[HB11]

:thumbsup:well said, I agree.

You can dimiss these polls all you like, but the fact remains that a large number of Catholics who attend services regularly support intrinsic evils such as abortion, so-called SSM etc. There are nationally recognized operations who do a decent job of Catholic polling. Gallup, Pew, CARA, Marist among them. I’ve heard sermons from Fr. Wade Menezes, Fr. Bill Casey and Fr. Ben Cameron of the Fathers of Mercy comment on these sad facts. And I for one highly trust them and their views. I know that where I work, of the five Catholic co-workers who attend Mass regularly, ***all ***of them embrace so-called SSM, and three accept abortion and a women’s right to choose. All believe that contraceptives should be allowed. And all receive Holy Communion and see no conflict with their beliefs and Church teachings. All rarely if ever go to confession. Fr. Menezes described these poll numbers on the state of today’s Catholic as “appalling.” Fr. Casey added, it is “the reason the Church finds itself in the predicament it’s in.”

I’m somewhat reminded of the Bread of Life Discourse. When Jesus said to his disciples;
"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him…And so it goes with many of today’s Catholics. They believe that the Church’s teachings on contraceptives, so-called SSM and abortion are also* “hard teachings”* and they say *"who can listen to them?” * And they feel that the Church has to bend to human weakness and today’s world views. But just as Jesus didn’t bend, and freely let the disciples choose to draw back and no longer walk with Him…so too the Church has to stay firm with her teachings and not give in to secular views. That’s why the synod this fall makes me nervous a little bit. Because God forbid, if somehow the Church were ever to relax any of her teachings, even just a little, then it truly would be safe to say…“Houston, we have a serious problem!”

---

Peace, Mark***