Pope Francis faces church divided over doctrine, global poll of Catholics finds

[rcwitness]

So it is OK to presume on God’s mercy and to assume that you will have that opportunity?

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?”

Romans 6:1,2

 

[Kliska]

This is not Taught by the Church, however. It is a HUGE misconception. We all have an obligation to directly approach God, for He has directly approached us (though, not all things are revealed to us directly and outside the rest of the body). It is the Father who beckons us to His Son. We should seek Him personally, with a pure heart. By doing this, we would never be directed away from what has been Taught by the Magisterium. What the Laity does not have, is the authority to bind or lose anything on the whole Body.

Honestly from what I’ve read in the CCC and what I’ve been told here (linked to Catholic teachings, encyclicals, etc…), it’s not as simple as you put forth. If the Pope and the Magisterium speak out about a specific interpretation and on faith and morals, what they say goes, officially, despite anything the laity may think. In short, they have a different position than the laity or else there would be no need for Bishops, Cardinals, the Magisterium and the Pope. It isn’t that the laity can’t or shouldn’t approach God, but there is a distinct difference in how protestants such as me, and Catholics such as you approach the idea of authority and interpretation.

I’m not trying to argue, just to clarify. Grace and peace to you!

 

[rcwitness]

Honestly from what I’ve read in the CCC and what I’ve been told here (linked to Catholic teachings, encyclicals, etc…), it’s not as simple as you put forth. If the Pope and the Magisterium speak out about a specific interpretation and on faith and morals, what they say goes, officially, despite anything the laity may think. In short, they have a different position than the laity or else there would be no need for Bishops, Cardinals, the Magisterium and the Pope. It isn’t that the laity can’t or shouldn’t approach God, but there is a distinct difference in how protestants such as me, and Catholics such as you approach the idea of authority and interpretation.

I’m not trying to argue, just to clarify. Grace and peace to you!

I have read your posts before, I know you aren’t here to argue. I appreciate your fellowship!

Just because the Magisterium has official authority to bind on the conscience of the whole body, does not mean the Laity can not go directly to God for direction. What we as Catholics understand, is that many times we, as individuals, can be mistaken as to what we believe is the Truth from God. Therefore, the Church working as a whole is able to interpret divine revelation. In our private walk and devotion, we are obligated to practice our general priesthood.

It does not even mean that the Magisterium cannot go through the Laity in order to receive truth from God! It can go either way! Nevertheless, the appointed leaders in the Church have the ultimate authority of the deposit of faith.

 

[J_Peterson]

I don’t think that anyone would consider that to be serious or grave matter which is required for a mortal sin, unless you are seriously threatening the person with death or grave personal harm. I thought that if you die with an unforgiven venial sin, you would go to purgatory, and what you have described seems like a venial sin. However, the use of the contraceptive pill or ABC is different, because it involves grave matter, does it not? Even in the case of a large family, which is facing financial difficulties, would not the use of contraceptives be a mortal sin, provided there was sufficient reflection and consent? Is that the Catholic teaching, that it is a mortal sin to use ABC, or has it been changed?

Not every mortal sin is sexual in nature. From the lips of Christ Himself:

22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.

 

[frobert]

Polls are as useless as the agenda they try to promote.

What was the pope’s agenda for the poll?

While polls are not and can not be accurate they do give a good indication where people stand. My thought is that pope commissioned this poll to have an indication where present day Catholics thought or believed about what the Church represents. He can use the results in a positive way to improve on how to get the true message of Catholicism out to average Catholics who do not have the benefit of that knowledge. The alternative is go along doing the same things over and over with the same results of misinformed average Catholics.

 

[Kliska]

I have read your posts before, I know you aren’t here to argue. I appreciate your fellowship!

Just because the Magisterium has official authority to bind on the conscience of the whole body, does not mean the Laity can not go directly to God for direction. What we as Catholics understand, is that many times we, as individuals, can be mistaken as to what we believe is the Truth from God. Therefore, the Church working as a whole is able to interpret divine revelation. In our private walk and devotion, we are obligated to practice our general priesthood.

It does not even mean that the Magisterium cannot go through the Laity in order to receive truth from God! It can go either way! Nevertheless, the appointed leaders in the Church have the ultimate authority of the deposit of faith.

Thank you for clarifying

 

[gilliam]

What was the pope’s agenda for the poll?

While polls are not and can not be accurate they do give a good indication where people stand. My thought is that pope commissioned this poll to have an indication where present day Catholics thought or believed about what the Church represents. He can use the results in a positive way to improve on how to get the true message of Catholicism out to average Catholics who do not have the benefit of that knowledge. The alternative is go along doing the same things over and over with the same results of misinformed average Catholics.

There are two surveys being talked about in the news these days. The one in the original post of this thread was not conduced by the Vatican, but by Univision a US Spanish TV network.

The survey commissioned by the Vatican surveys not what people think of different doctrines of the Church (as this one does) but how well the training is being conducted in certain doctrines.

 

[Tigg]

Truth never comes from poll. Doctrine is not decided by voting. Poll is meaningless to true disciples.

Absolutely true! May I add that the Church is holy (and a part of our Creed) not because of her members, but because Christ is the head. He, Who founded the Church, will never allow compromising doctrine to triumph as that would be contra to His will to save mankind. And although man continues to corrupt and confuse, doctrine will prevail in the same uninterrupted teaching.

That’s why this quote from the article points to an agenda-driven poll (see Gilliam’s post of clarification above) and is an obvious attempt to inflame the rebellious.

“This is a balancing act. They have to hold together two increasingly divergent constituencies. The church has lost its ability to dictate what people do,” said Ronald Inglehart, founding president of the World Values Survey, an ongoing global research project.

The Church does not dictate – the Church speaks truth and invites those with ears to hear to choose the right path.

 

[zz912]

The point is; the laity don’t believe they have direct access to the truth of God via God directly, but rather through the Pope and Magisterium who do have that access. Therefore you have a group of individuals who lay out formal teachings for the laity. The RCC has a much more organizational approach which can yield more clarity on what members of your church are supposed to support and believe.

Others have sufficiently responded to this portion. I do understand your underlying point that there is a formal structure for keeping the faith from being warped or changed. It is a blessing of the Church.

I’m sorry, I don’t agree. Secularism does not arise from Protestantism,

Didn’t say it did.

Secularism is a different beast that comes from a Naturalistic and Materialistic mindset.

And atheistic mindset as well.

To focus on bible-believing protestants who are part of the Body of Christ is not the way to fight abortion. Focusing on bible-believing protestants is not the way to stop marriage from being redefined as between whoever wants to get hitched.

I agree. Didn’t mean to imply differently. But there are fundamental errors in Protestantism, a lack of the fullness of truth, that must be pointed out and not glossed over either.

It would also be a mistake to blame protestants for cafeteria Catholics; we have our own problems, and enough that we are indeed actually responsible for. lol

Plenty of blame to go around. A lot resides with the bishops and priests who didn’t teach or instruct Catholics about the errors in Protesantism, and why the Christian faith is an all-or-nothing proposition. A majority resides with the individuals who listened to what they wanted to hear, and decided to pick and choose doctrine. But it can’t be ignored that this idea of picking doctrines to believe is based on the ideas of the Protestant revolution, where a new denomination was created every time someone thought differently.

As I said, conservative Catholics and Protestants are much more in line than the liberals from any denomination.

Agreed.

We are indeed to speak the truth in love to each other, but we should also recognize that it doesn’t do any good to help those outside of the body to help attack the very body we are a part of.

It’s not an “attack”. It is pointing out in love and charity the errors so that our brothers and sisters in Christ can be enlightened to the truth, and can wrap themselves in the Christian faith.

 

[Kliska]

I agree. Didn’t mean to imply differently. But there are fundamental errors in Protestantism, a lack of the fullness of truth, that must be pointed out and not glossed over either.

And, of course, the rest of us in Christendom feel that way about others who hold different beliefs on what constitutes the church, salvation, etc… Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestants. I do believe that we owe it to God to know why we believe what we believe and why we stand behind what we believe, regardless of denomination, and it is indeed up to the teachers in the churches to be clear about doctrine.

Plenty of blame to go around. A lot resides with the bishops and priests who didn’t teach or instruct Catholics about the errors in Protesantism, and why the Christian faith is an all-or-nothing proposition. A majority resides with the individuals who listened to what they wanted to hear, and decided to pick and choose doctrine. But it can’t be ignored that this idea of picking doctrines to believe is based on the ideas of the Protestant revolution, where a new denomination was created every time someone thought differently

The problem is that have always been differing views, and you are never going to have an absolute monolith of organization. Some say that’s a division of the church, some say that it expression of the different members of the body; foot, hand, rib, etc… Division is sad indeed, but we do need to recognize, as the modern popes have that Mark 9: 38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part. It is not a carte blanche for division, but it underscores that fellow Christians are not the enemy.

It’s not an “attack”. It is pointing out in love and charity the errors so that our brothers and sisters in Christ can be enlightened to the truth, and can wrap themselves in the Christian faith.

Some attack, some don’t. There is a difference between teaching truth to the congregations of the church they attend, and tearing down other congregations. But, I agree that a Catholic shouldn’t act Protestant for the sake of some idea of modernization.

 

[TRH1292]

I appreciate your insightful posts and hearing your thoughts, Kliska.

 

[a_cermak]

Does using contraception with the intention of confessing it later on in life constitute the mortal sin of presumption, or is it OK to presume on God’s mercy now?

Wouldn’t that depend on the contrition? I would imagine most deathbed conversions are pretty sincere. Likewise, most couples, as their last child goes off to independent adulthood, faces it with some wish that they had had more children, so there is also the basis for contrition there.

 

[ProVobis]

Wouldn’t that depend on the contrition? I would imagine most deathbed conversions are pretty sincere. Likewise, most couples, as their last child goes off to independent adulthood, faces it with some wish that they had had more children, so there is also the basis for contrition there.

So how does one balance between the sin of despair vs the sin of presumption?

 

[frobert]

It’s not an “attack”. It is pointing out in love and charity the errors so that our brothers and sisters in Christ can be enlightened to the truth, and can wrap themselves in the Christian faith.

Some people, especially those who have a sincere belief in their religion may feel confronted by what other sincere people believe ‘love and charity,’ confronting one’s beliefs is a recipe for failure as it has a way to make the other firmer in their own beliefs and perhaps hostile which doesn’t help the CC.

 

[OriginalJS]

Yes, that seems to be the question with polls. Who is Catholic? Is it the baptized Parish member who attends the sacraments but secretly is a closet Protestant?

There is only one Church…Roman Catholic (Universal Church in Communion with The Bishop of Rome). There are many Christian denominations. All Christians by belief (who provide the minimal Sacrament of Baptism) belong to the Catholic Church. Those who don’t believe in the Catholic Doctrines, are protesting their own faith.

Michael

The Church says anyone who has been baptised Catholic remains Catholic. There are no degrees of membership.

 

[Tigg]

zz912;11693864:

It’s not an “attack”. It is pointing out in love and charity the errors so that our brothers and sisters in Christ can be enlightened to the truth, and can wrap themselves in the Christian faith.

Some people, especially those who have a sincere belief in their religion may feel confronted by what other sincere people believe ‘love and charity,’ confronting one’s beliefs is a recipe for failure as it has a way to make the other firmer in their own beliefs and perhaps hostile which doesn’t help the CC.

Perhaps I’m not fully understanding your point, frobert, but a Servant of God once accurately pointed out that we are to be merciless to the errors of man’s mind. Confrontation aside, the Church must be the uncompromising bulwark of true charity which only wants the very best for our neighbor which is eternal life. That everlasting happiness must be sought through the purity of divine revelation and objective truth is non-negotiable in moral matters. My favorite quote, once again with my added emphasis:

Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.

The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies
that have entered into contest with the Truth.

It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin;
it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.

The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body; but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom………

Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.

~ Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen ~

The Holy Father desires a pastoral approach which is necessary in order not to alienate, and unfortunately this is being misinterpreted by some to say he means to “fix” the division over doctrine through capitulation to error. This can never happen.

 

[freiabereinsam]

The mere existence of polls like these appears to be an implicit endorsement of the idea that church doctrine should be decided by church members. But it cannot be that any behavior is not a sin just because any percentage–even 100%–of the “Catholic” population thinks so. The reasoning should point in the opposite direction.

It is disturbing, however, that many “Catholics” reject church morality on grounds of convenience.

 

[frobert]

Perhaps I’m not fully understanding your point, frobert, but a Servant of God once accurately pointed out that we are to be merciless to the errors of man’s mind. Confrontation aside, the Church must be the uncompromising bulwark of true charity which only wants the very best for our neighbor which is eternal life. That everlasting happiness must be sought through the purity of divine revelation and objective truth is non-negotiable in moral matters. My favorite quote, once again with my added emphasis:

The Holy Father desires a pastoral approach which is necessary in order not to alienate, and unfortunately this is being misinterpreted by some to say he means to “fix” the division over doctrine through capitulation to error. This can never happen.

My point is quite simple. Confrontation doesn’t work. If your good efforts, and I do accept them as good, are confrontational in nature then your efforts are wasted and possibly with an unintended consequence of hostility. On the other hand if you use non-confrontational talk that is attentive, reflective and motivational then you have a much better chance to open the other person’s mind and heart and my accomplish what you set out to do.

 

[rcwitness]

The Church says anyone who has been baptised Catholic remains Catholic. There are no degrees of membership.

That’ a good point. I was aware of that when I wrote what I wrote.

The thing is,… There is no difference between a Chatholic Baptism and a ‘recognized’ Protestant Baptism. The sacrament of many Protestant Baptisms is recognized by the Church. Therfore, in a real sense, many Protestant Christians are our brothers and sisters. From there, we can be recognized as Catholic by a deeper devotion/grace in Him through other Sacraments such as Confirmation and Eucharist. A recognized Catholic who rejects many important graces from God, is a Protestant Catholic. There is no other Christian than those who are members of the One Mystical Body of Christ. This body is the Catholic Church, also.

In this way, the Catholic Church IS divided!!! Yet, She is united in the leadership and Sacraments Jesus gives. And this is where we as “genuine” Catholics find our healing.

Hope that clarifies what I believe when I posted before
Michael

 

[TRH1292]

That’ a good point. I was aware of that when I wrote what I wrote.

The thing is,… There is no difference between a Chatholic Baptism and a ‘recognized’ Protestant Baptism. The sacrament of many Protestant Baptisms is recognized by the Church. Therfore, in a real sense, many Protestant Christians are our brothers and sisters. From there, we can be recognized as Catholic by a deeper devotion/grace in Him through other Sacraments such as Confirmation and Eucharist. A recognized Catholic who rejects many important graces from God, is a Protestant Catholic. There is no other Christian than those who are members of the One Mystical Body of Christ. This body is the Catholic Church, also.

In this way, the Catholic Church IS divided!!! Yet, She is united in the leadership and Sacraments Jesus gives. And this is where we as “genuine” Catholics find our healing.

Hope that clarifies what I believe when I posted before
Michael

Although valid Baptism does put one in a certain although imperfect communion with the Church, one does not become a member of the Catholic Church until one is received into it by a priest, if one was not baptized a Catholic.